The “best argument for abortion” was just completely demolished



If you don’t know who Matt Walsh is by now, you are really missing out. He got an email from someone saying he was afraid to take on the “best pro-choice argument”, clearly, he’s not afraid.

Dear Matt, ever since I first read your blog I knew you were a cowardly fake. It wasn’t until I started reading some of your anti-choice articles that my suspicions were truly confirmed. You spend a lot of time picking the low hanging fruit. You attack the weakest abortion rights arguments while ignoring the glaring weaknesses in your own position.

If you had the guts or the brains you’d try to respond to the most important abortion rights argument… bodily autonomy or bodily integrity. This means that we have the final jurisdiction over our own bodies. Nobody can claim a right to our body that goes above our own right. Nobody can use our bodies without consent. We cannot be forced to donate organs or blood to someone else. A fetus must survive on a woman’s body so the woman has a right to withdrawal her consent and her body at any time.

This is the pro-choice argument that no anti-choice fanatic… especially one as stubborn and simpleminded as you… could ever possibly dispute. If you still don’t understand, try to imagine this hypothetical…

Imagine that you wake up one morning in a hospital bed. In the bed next to you is a famous singer. He is unconscious and all of these tubes are connected from him to you. A doctor comes in and explains that the singer became sick and you are the only person with the right blood type to match his. They need you to remain hooked up to him until he recovers… they tell you it should only take nine months. Until then, he needs to use all of your organs… your kidneys, liver, lungs, everything… just to survive. If you unplug yourself, he will die. So do you think you are obligated to stay plugged in? Does he have a right to live off of you like this? Should you be FORCED to stay connected to him?

That’s what situation the pregnant woman is in. Instead of harping on all of these irrelevant issues, I wish you’d be brave enough to address it from this angle. It is immoral to require a woman to sustain a fetus and it is moral for a woman to make a decision with her body based on what is right for her. How can you argue against this?

But I guess your blog is more about preaching to the choir than actually being intelligent and bold in your writing. What a shame.

-Rachel

Here’s my answer:

Dear Rachel,

You’re right. You win. I have no response. I can’t think of any reason why you’re wrong about any of the points you raised.

Well, I can’t think of any reason — except for, like, ten reasons. So I’ll start with five reasons why that hypothetical is flawed, and move on to five additional reasons why your overall argument is flawed.

Here we go:

1. Your analogy is flawed because it presupposes that the relationship between mother and child is no more significant, and carries with it no more responsibility, than the relationship between a person and some random stranger in a hospital bed.

This is absurd. If we’re trying to make this hypothetical as close to pregnancy as possible, shouldn’t the sick singer (or violinist, according to the original iteration of this hypothetical) at least be your child? Your argument doesn’t work because the fact that your child is your child, and not some strange adult from across town, is precisely the point. Hidden cleverly in this hypothetical is the insinuation that one cannot agree that an unborn child has a right to his mother’s body, without agreeing that anyone in the entire world, in any context, for any reason, at any point, for any period of time, has a right to a woman’s body.

Nice try, Rachel.

Just because a mother is expected to be a mother doesn’t mean she’s also expected to be a slave, a prostitute, and a forced organ donor to talented musical artists. Indeed, the extent of our responsibility to a person hinges in many ways on our relationship to them. You would, I assume, agree that you have a responsibility to your born children, wouldn’t you? And your responsibility to them extends far beyond your responsibility to your neighbor, or your plumber, or your trash collector, doesn’t it? The relationship matters. Your hypothetical fails because it pretends that relationships are irrelevant.

2. Your analogy is flawed because it leaves out an important detail: how did the singer become ill in the first place?

Aside from cases of rape, a child is only conceived because two people intentionally committed a particular act which has, literally billions of times, resulted in the conception of a human life.

This singer came down with a terrible sickness. You might feel pity for him, but you didn’t cause him to be sick. You didn’t put him in this state. You had absolutely nothing to do with it. The same cannot be said when a child is conceived.

3. Your analogy is flawed because, when framed properly, it doesn’t strengthen your moral position — it defeats it.

The hypothetical should be this: your own child becomes very sick because of something you did. He needs a blood transfusion and you are the only match. Would you refuse to give him your blood because it infringes on your bodily autonomy? Could this be morally justified? You put your kid in the hospital and now you will choose to watch him die because he ‘doesn’t have a right to your blood.’ THIS scenario would be the closest to abortion. And, if you are consistent in your affinity for ‘bodily autonomy,’ you could not criticize parents who’d rather let their child die than be inconvenienced by a blood transfusion.

4. But, no matter how you frame the hypothetical, it is still flawed because it ignores one crucial thing: natural order.

An unborn child is exactly where he is supposed to be. He couldn’t possibly be anywhere else. This is the fundamental difference between two people hooked up to machines on a hospital bed, and a ‘fetus’ connected to his mother insider her womb. The former represents unnatural and extraordinary measures, while the latter represents something natural and ordinary. The unborn child is where Nature (or God, as I call Him) intends it to be.

The unborn child is not, in any scientific or medical sense, an intruder or a parasite. These words have meanings, and unborn babies do not fit the bill. They are where they are supposed to be. They are where they belong. A fish belongs in water, just as an unborn child belongs in his mother’s womb.

5. Beyond all of these points, the analogy is flawed because abortion is not the same as ‘unplugging’ a person from medical equipment.

It might be quite sanitary and pleasant to refer to abortion as a woman ‘withdrawing support’ from her child, but the procedure goes beyond this. During a ‘termination,’ the baby is actively killed. It is crushed, dismembered, poisoned, or torn apart. It is killed. It is actively, actually, purposefully, intentionally killed.

In fact, even in the original hypothetical — where you’re hooked up to a singer in a hospital bed — while it would be acceptable to unplug yourself, it would NOT be morally or legally permissible to shoot the poor guy in the head. A person’s physical reliance on you does not give you the moral (or legal, usually) right to murder them. ‘Withdrawing support’ is precisely what an abortion isn’t. If it was, then the baby would be delivered and left to die in the corner of the room. Of course, this is how some abortionists conduct business, but it’s illegal. If they’re caught, they go to jail.

6. But the bodily autonomy argument is flawed in ways that go beyond that utterly fallacious and misleading hypothetical. It’s flawed because nobody is crazy enough to consistently apply it to pregnant women.

According to bodily autonomy, a mother could not be judged harshly for smoking, drinking, doing coke, and going skydiving (hopefully not all in the same day) while 6 months pregnant. If you really believe that a woman’s body is autonomous — that she has absolute jurisdiction over it — then you must defend a mother who does things that could seriously harm her unborn child, even if she hasn’t chosen to abort it. This is not a slippery slope argument; this is a reasonable and inevitable application of your principle.

7. The bodily autonomy argument is flawed because it requires you to support abortion at every stage of development.

I’m throwing this in here because most pro-aborts will not (vocally) defend abortion at 8 or 9 months. But — if bodily autonomy is your claim — you must. Is a woman’s body less autonomous when she’s been pregnant for 35 weeks? There is no way around it: bodily autonomy means that it is moral to kill a fully formed baby, at seven months, or eight months, or nine months.

8. The bodily autonomy argument is flawed because you can’t limit it to pregnant women.

You say that our bodies cannot be ‘used’ without our ‘consent.’ Why should this apply only to pregnancy and organ donations? Children, at any age, create profound demands on their parents’ bodies. Whether it’s waking up in the middle of the night for the crying baby, working long hours to pay for their food and clothing, carrying them around when they cannot walk, staying home when you’d like to go out, going out (to bring them to the doctor, or school, or soccer practice) when you’d like to stay in, etc, etc, etc, and so forth. An argument for absolute bodily autonomy means that it can’t be illegal, or considered immoral, for a parent to decline to do any of these things, so long as their decision was made in the name of bodily autonomy.

9. The bodily autonomy argument is flawed because it necessarily justifies things like public masturbation.

If I can ‘do what I want with my body,’ then it becomes very difficult to launch a salient moral or legal attack against a man who chooses to sit in a playground in front of children and pleasure his own body.

10. Finally, the bodily autonomy argument is flawed because our bodies are not autonomous.

I’m often accused of oversimplifying, but I’ve never oversimplified to the extent of you bodily autonomy proponents. Once we’ve considered every complexity and nuance, we can rightly say that our bodies are autonomous in some ways, and in some circumstances, but not in others. We cannot say that they are absolutely autonomous, and I find it hard to believe that anyone truly thinks that.

Any claim or responsibility placed on me, automatically includes a claim and responsibility on my body. Everything I do involves my body. I am my body. CS Lewis would say that I am my soul and I have a body. I agree with him, but for our purposes in this discussion, leaving souls and spirits aside, we are our bodies. Whether we are expected to pay taxes or drive the speed limit or provide a safe and sanitary home for our children, we are using our bodies to meet these expectations. We experience and participate in life with our bodies. Absolute bodily autonomy is inexorably linked with personal autonomy. If my body is autonomous, my person must be autonomous, and if my person is autonomous, then my very existence is autonomous, and if my very existence is autonomous, then it is simply unacceptable and (by your logic) immoral for anyone to expect me to do anything for anyone at any point for any reason.

If you concede that we ought to be expected or even required to do certain things, then you are placing limits on our bodily autonomy. If you place limits on our bodily autonomy, then you are admitting that limits can be placed on our bodily autonomy. If you are admitting that limits can be placed on our bodily autonomy, then you must consider whether abortion falls within or outside of those limits. And here’s the rub: if you contend that abortion falls within the limits on bodily autonomy, you must justify that belief beyond simply reasserting our right to bodily autonomy.

Personally, I think that abortion goes well beyond the limits on bodily autonomy, for all of the reasons I’ve previously stipulated.

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  • Brandon C.

    I’ll admit… I was fairly ambivalent on the topic of abortion… until my wife had a miscarraige. The pain and loss we suffered was tremendous – her, moreso than myself, of course. I’d never, ever wish that pain and loss, or any comparable pain and loss, on anyone else.

    However, this moral argument is highly personal, and thanks to years of liberal indoctrination, people who are outspoken against Abortion are often seen as cruel and inhumane, so I’ve kept this opinion to myself.

    The arguments laid out in this response are exactly the sort of thing I have always hoped to see. Thank you for sharing, YoungCons :)

    • Pro-life and Proud

      Brandon, so sorry for your loss.

    • cg

      I wish more conservative/anti- abortionists would discuss cases like yours more often. By talking more about the consequences, the depression, and in the case of an abortion, the regret that a mother can deal with for the rest of her life, we can begin to get young would-be mothers to better understand the potential consequences of their choice, and alternatives. Not being discussed near enough, are alternatives such as adoption. In my opinion, we should be talking about this more. Thanks for sharing your story!

      • metalhead49424

        The rebuttal here is, “Well what about the people that don’t suffer like that?”

        • cg

          It’s widely known, and even accepted by “science” that having sexual intercourse can result in pregnancy. Multiple options for birth control exist that are all far more humane than abortion. Should those fail, Adoption. Long story short, personal responsibility is what’s missing in your argument. It’s funny, when you believe in people, and expect their best from them, sometimes you get more. I believe when we begin holding society to a higher standard, we will rise to that standard together. Abortion is made too easy and convenient, and young scared girls can make the choice too carelessly, not realizing the potential negative effects. Those who can do this and shrug it off? That’s kind of scary.

          • Lacey

            The potential side-effects? Like having a kid and having to care for it at an age when you still have to raise your hand to use the restroom in school?

          • Brandon C.

            I cannot stand by the argument of “let’s kill this unborn baby because it will be inconvenient.” That very idea is morally repugnant to me. If you’re gonna have sex, you need to be prepared for nature’s intended result of that deed (pregnancy). Let your parents raise the kid, put them up for adoption, whatever. But to have an abortion for convenience? Urgh.

          • Smoky Blokey

            I agree, that is avoiding personal responsibility!!!

          • Body image vs health??

            It isn’t irresponsible to get an abortion. That is a responsible choice. To take care of yourself. You may not like it, but that doesn’t make it irresponsible.

          • SaudiAmerican

            Perhaps immoral would have been a better term.

          • Body image vs health??

            Better as at least “immoral” is an opinion. As I think it is entirely immoral to force a woman through a pregnancy she does not want.

          • bakakurisu

            Who’s “forcing women through pregnancy”?

            Do laws against rape force men into abstinence?

            THINK!

            Your rhetoric is completely impertinent – all you guys do is attack strawmen.

          • Body image vs health??

            I use strawmen? What on earth was the laws against rape analogy then? See, men can have consensual sex. Rape laws do not stop them from having consensual sex. If abortion is illegal, then a woman who is pregnant is forced to go through that pregnancy. Often that pregnancy is wanted. Sometimes it isn’t.

            In a pro-choice world, women can still have babies. Women can still get pregnant when they want to. They just aren’t FORCED to remain pregnant if circumstances beyond their control make pregnancy something they cannot handle.

            You all seem to think that being pro-choice means that all I want is for all the fetuses to be aborted. That is absolutely ludicrous. I want to improve the lives of women so pregnancy isn’t something that can drastically impact their lives. See, being pregnant can keep a woman from going to school. Being pregnant can make work difficult. Being pregnant can make a woman lose her job. Being pregnant can cause physical problems a woman will never recover from. If she keeps the baby, she is not given paid maternity leave. Our country values hard work above EVERYTHING. Including family. So, I would not say that my desire to ensure that women are secure and all children are wanted is the biggest moral failing in the country. I would say that the idea that hard work is the only way to succeed and spending ludicrous amounts of time at work at the expense of your family time is much more damaging to families than wanting all children to be born into loving, well prepared families.

          • bakakurisu

            What’s wrong with the rape analogy? You assume that ANY man can just have consensual sex? What if he can’t? What if no woman will even go out with him? Laws against rape “FORCE” him into abstinence the same way that laws against abortion “force” women to be pregnant. Do you see any advocate of life dictating that every (or even ‘any’) woman should be forced to have unprotected sex and conceive a child? Rest assured that our hearts bleed for your “plight” *eyeroll*, but we don’t agree that your desire to have sex without consequences should supersede a child’s right to live.

            In a pro-life world, ALL human beings are entitled to entire LIFETIMES of choices. No one will be forced to ‘remain pregnant’ because no one will be forced to BECOME pregnant.

            At what point and in what way did I insinuate that you want all children in their wombs to be slaughtered?

            …And are you REALLY trying to gussy up your holocaust with flowery bullsh*t??? What about PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY? Again, you pro-aborts are acting like pregnancy is an arbitrary affliction – we don’t agree that children need to die just because you want to have sex. Furthermore, we agree with currently-standing “deadbeat dad” laws that force MEN to support the children that they helped conceive, even if it’s ‘inconvenient’, even if it’s ‘difficult’, even if it completely derails his entire life’s plans. While you’re completely ignoring the men (unless of course the mother WANTS the child, then you insist that she takes his deadbeat ass to Maury and slap him with a paternity suit), we really don’t care WHAT you have or don’t have between your legs – if you lie down and make a child, you stand up and be a parent. A child’s right to live should supersede your selfish desires.

          • cyndi172003

            What about that tiny HUMAN that YOU created? The human that is your CHILD! You don’t have any responsibility in taking care of your children?

          • Body image vs health??

            OMG! You mean that thing inside me is human? I totally thought it was an orca whale. Please. Just because it is human does not mean it is a person. It is still living COMPLETELY and TOTALLY off my body. It cannot breathe. It cannot think. It is for all intents and purposes PART of MY body. So… no. It is NOT a child. It is NOT a baby. It is a FETUS. Don’t be afraid of the word. If you are afraid of the word, you do not belong in the argument. There is a difference between a baby and a fetus. The latter cannot feel, cannot think, cannot breathe, cannot function without a physical connection to it’s mother. A fetus cannot be given to grandma or grandpa to babysit. A fetus cannot be given up for adoption. A fetus cannot be given to anyone else. To remove it, it must die.

          • cyndi172003

            So you’re a human, are you not also a person? How do you differentiate human vs. person? You were once part of you mom’s body… so you’re not 100% unique. I know what a fetus is, it is a developing human. A fetus has absolutely nothing to do but be a human. Human==adult=child=baby=fetus=embryo=zygote=sperm+ova. They’re all the same, just in different stages of development. And you know what technically a person isn’t fully developed until they are in the they’re late teens to early twenties, so if you’re going to use the “not fully developed” argument you have to take that into account. Even after birth children cannot survive with out their parent or someone to take care of it the. I guess that means that they aren’t human either. Also you’re telling me that as soon as a child is born it magically obtains the ability to feel? That they didn’t have nerves or any kind of pain sensation before they got pushed out of their mom’s vagina? Or is that the magic portal for pain receptors to form?

          • Body image vs health??

            No. A person is not the same as a human. A mole is made of human cells. A fetus is human, but it literally CANNOT live without it’s mother. It is INSIDE it’s mother. Physically connected and if that connection is broken, it dies. Almost immediately. Infants RELY on their parents, but ANYONE can take care of it. It can be given to someone else to take care of. Yes, I was part of my mom’s body. And she wanted me there. That isn’t really an argument. Pro-choice people have children. They’re just ALL wanted. Never unwanted. Never born to people unable and unwilling to care for them. Big difference. And, as a developing human, it is still developing. Like a developing photo. Not really a photo yet, is it?

            If you cannot understand the difference between being LITERALLY connected to a person to survive and being dependent on a person to feed you every now and then and to make sure nothing happens to you, I cannot help you. That is beyond my abilities.

          • cyndi172003

            I fully understand the absolute necessity for a connection between the fetus and the mother for life to continue. However, I do not understand how a human is not a person. Nor can I understand why you hate kids so much. If it weren’t for fetuses not one of us would be alive! Might be good in your case. Also, you need to get your facts straight. Read a little bit about human growth and development, but then again that would require you to pull your head out of your ass and see beyond yourself and your own selfish distain for human life.

          • Body image vs health??

            I don’t hate kids. I think kids are great. I never said I didn’t hate kids. But, me liking children does not mean that I then ignore the pregnant woman. Having human DNA does not make something a person. Cancer has human DNA. Being a fertilized egg does not make one a person. It makes one a fertilized egg. Being AUTONOMOUS makes one a person. Being NO LONGER physically connected to another person to allow you to live makes you a person. This isn’t a difficult concept.

            I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST FETUSES. However, you seem to ignore pregnant people since literally ALL you talked about was the fetus. You DO realize a pregnant person is ALSO involved in a pregnancy, right? She matters too?

            I know A LOT about human development. I’ve studied genetics and human development for almost 6 years now. I don’t see how the development of a fetus has to do with autonomy and personhood… But, what do I know, I only care about pregnant people more than fetuses.

            Oh, and thanks for the implication I should never have been born! That’s SUPER pro-life! ALL LIFE MATTERS EXCEPT THE PEOPLE WHO DON’T AGREE WITH ME THAT FETUSES HAVE ALL THE RIGHTS AND PREGNANT WOMEN SHOULD HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT THAT BEFORE THEY BECAME SLUTS! (P.S. Over half of the women seeking abortion are ALREADY mothers. They already have kids. And, many have trouble feeding them. So, why don’t you help to end poverty instead of slut shaming? Oh! Because it means real work and not just self-righteous shaming of people you don’t know? Got it.)

          • cyndi172003

            Did I say anything about sluts? Nope. Not a relevant point. If you don’t want a kid or another kid prevent it. birth control, sterilization, condoms, or something other than killing it.

          • Body image vs health??

            2/3 of women seeking abortions were using birth control.

          • bakakurisu

            Yeah, we just don’t agree with your belief that a eugenical holocaust is the solution to society’s woes.

            …And I debunk the rest of your crap throughout this thread. Enjoy! :)

          • Body image vs health??

            How is allowing a woman to choose whether or not she personally has a baby at that time is eugenics. Or a holocaust. You act like pro-choice people are sitting there, wringing their hands and laughing maniacally and begging all women to abort all the fetuses.

          • lovelife

            I see that you claim to care so much about the pregnant woman. What you must be failing to realize is how much damage an abortion can have on the pregnant woman. Obviously not 100% of the time, but more often than not, the women will have countless issues due to it. Not only is there emotional/mental/hormonal changes and issues but also those women may be ruined internally and never have children again when they do desire them. Not to mention “abortions gone wrong” where they get infections, die, extreme blood loss and complications. Or how about the studies showing that it dramatically increases chances for multiple health problems/disease and suicide/depression in the persons life. Even in the lower percentage of woman who dont have complication or experience shame and emotional damage immediately they still have forever changed their bodies and as previously mentioned increased their chances of a lifetime with issues

          • Body image vs health??

            No no no. The most common feeling after an abortion is relief. Yes, many women feel sadness, etc. Those feelings are valid. But, I do not deem to know what is best for a person just because some people feel sad about it. Women RARELY have physical problems due to abortion. It doesn’t really increase your risk of miscarriage in the future. And, abortions “gone wrong” are often illegal, back alley abortions, which I am trying to prevent. If women are SO desperate to have an abortion that they risk their health, and even their life, to end a pregnancy, how dare you tell them what they are doing is just going to cause them sadness? And, you know what actually HAS a psychological disorder named for it? (Post-abortion syndrome is NOT a real disorder.) Post-partum depression. There is an actual, psychological disorder named for depression felt after giving birth. Let’s ban pregnancy because some women (enough to have a disorder named for them) feel depression and physical problems due to pregnancy. Pregnancy can cause serious health problems. Uterine prolapse, pelvic floor dysfunction leading to urinary incontinence. Possibly uterine rupture and subsequent infertility.

          • felicity

            It relief really the most common feeling? Really? All the women I know who have had an abortion have immense grief and regret. Every single one. What are you basing this on? I also find your “trying to make it safe” to kill babies abhorrent. I feel incredibly sorry for people so blatantly and intentionally blind like you are. Did you even read the article? Give any of the points consideration? Because it sure seems like you haven’t.

            And just for future reference:

            Human –
            a person, especially as distinguished from other animals or as representing the human species.

            And fetus literally means unborn baby.

            Can I ask you a question? At what point do you actually consider these tiny humans as “people”, and deserving of life? Is it at viability? Birth? When they can talk? What about at age 25 – 28 when the brain is fully developed? Do you know?

          • Kristin

            If you ever regret your abortion, Rachael’s Vineyard is a healing retreat for men and women that have suffered from abortion. Some of the people’s responses on this forum are awful. We are called to be compassionate to all-including those that have chosen abortion. Peace.

          • bakakurisu

            We don’t care if a woman decides whether or not to have a baby – you guys keep erecting armies of strawmen to fight against. You don’t want to have a kid in your womb? Don’t put one in there. You pro-aborts act like we’re wringing our hands, laughing maniacally while forcing women to get pregnant.

            We’re just making homicide illegal. We are making it illegal for mothers to slaughter their children. The fact that this is inconvenient for you says FAR more about YOU than it does about US.

            By the way:
            ____________________________________________

            hol·o·caust [hol-uh-kawst, hoh-luh-]

            noun
            1. a great or complete devastation or destruction, especially by fire.
            2. a sacrifice completely consumed by fire; burnt offering.
            3. (usually initial capital letter ) the systematic mass slaughter of European Jews in Nazi concentration camps during World War II (usually preceded by the ).
            4. any mass slaughter or reckless destruction of life.
            ____________________________________________

          • Robin Hood

            If you want to decide birth control for other folks, go to Nazi Germany, here we have freedom & choice…

          • Nicole Sheets

            You keep using the word ‘choose’. The only choice she made was to have sex. You are not ‘pro choice’ you are pro abortion or anti life.

          • gdesigner86

            Anyone who doesn’t want to take responsibility for the potential consequences of having sex should have their tubes tied or ensure in another manner that it is virtually impossible to conceive a child. If you and those who follow your ideals continue in your thinking of trying to eliminate natural consequences from your actions, neutering yourself would be the responsible thing, just as much as those who go on about neutering your pet is the responsible thing.

            Even people who are against neutering pets make the argument that you should keep close maintenance to ensure the pet doesn’t have the chance to get pregnant because of how horrific the thought is of killing a litter of puppies or kittens.

            Saying that a person became pregnant is not their fault is just the same as saying a person “accidentally” shot herself in the head playing russian roulette. If you don’t want to get shot, what are you doing with a loaded gun to your head in the first place?

          • gdesigner86

            I just had to add that I am all for contraceptives. Sex is a great way to bring a couple together and it’s the best thing ever. However, it’s just absolutely necessary to ensure that the person you’re having sex with is the type of person you would want to raise a child with just in case.

            Making responsible choices of what you do with your body before-hand is really what you should call “Taking care of yourself.”

            In addition, you need to stop making the comparison between a mole and a fetus. A mole will never become a human. They are NOT the same thing.

          • Body image vs health??

            2/3 of the women seeking abortion were using birth control.

          • Amun03

            You are lying to yourself if you believe that.

          • Body image vs health??

            Ironically, I suppose, I got that statistic from Lifesitenews.com. The Guttmacher Institute places it closer to 54%.

          • Mary Buerkley

            you are this site’s ‘mole’, liberals always have percentages and personal scenarios AND no Principle! sick!

          • Highliter

            Not correctly, so no they basically were not.

          • Curtis Cleaveland Pierce Jr

            Can you please show me where you are getting these statistics?

          • LoveisAlive

            Are Siamese twins persons? According to your argument, one must be autonomous to be a person. However, I know of cases where conjoined twins would lose their lives if separated. So they were not autonomous as individual persons, but rather totally dependent on one another for survival. Kind of like a mother and fetus, huh?

          • just a mom

            Body image vs. health. A fetus is a person. End of story. When I saw my twins on their first ultrasound at 13 wks. I saw two babies. Two heads two bodies, two beating hearts, four arms and four legs. Two little people. And they did not just attach to me and begin draining me. I chose to partake in an activity that we all understand creates another life. A life that deserved to live. They had no choice in their existence. However their mother did

          • Body image vs health??

            Exactly. Their mother had a choice. And, a woman using birth control is making her opinion on whether or not she wants to be a mother VERY apparent. But, having a wanted pregnancy is very different than having an unwanted one. I know you saw two babies. You wanted them. That is what I desire for all people. I want them to see fetuses on the ultrasound and be ecstatic. Not everyone feels that way. If they don’t, do you really want to punish them for that?

          • Stephanie

            Not punishing them…. actually dealing with the consequences instead of running away from them. You know… acting like an adult. If they felt so strongly about not having kids they should’ve been using multiple forms of birth control or not having sex. There are lots of ways to not get pregnant. I think punishment would be years later down the road when she is a more mature person and she wonders about that baby she killed… just a thought in the back of her mind that makes her have some sleepless nights… that not even the good ol’ arguments can push away…. that sounds like punishment.. being tortured with thoughts that you can’t do anything about.

          • IDontGetIt

            Just to make sure I am understanding you correctly, if I don’t want kids than I shouldn’t be allowed to become intimately connected to someone, regardless if I am using a birth control or not? Birth control, no matter how many you use at one time, is NEVER 100% going to prevent a pregnancy. That does not mean I, or anyone else, should be robbed of a very strong, pleasurable connection with my loved one just because I am not ready to be responsible for the life of another. There is only ONE true way to not get pregnant, not having sex. But that can also rob you of having a very personal connection with someone that you would want to be the father or mother of your future children.

          • Marjohna

            You are putting your arguments in terms of an adolescent. Yes, to prevent the creation of an unwanted life that you will be responsible for, whether you kill him or her or not, we are asking you to restrain yourself. Very personal connections do not occur because of sex – they are an emotional and intellectual development that should come first, including being ready for a child. If you were thinking like an adult, you would know that, hence, you are not ready for sex or children. If you conceive, your future child is here and now. Please do not kill.

          • Toni

            If you didb’t want babies, why have sex? idiots these days

          • vforba

            Being punished or disciplined is how one learns that something is typically wrong. We learn not to steal, we learn not to lie, we learn not to take advantage of others. Apparently you were never disciplined properly as a child

          • Guest

            Just as a heads up, I am pro-life, I have a son, and I was VERY scared when I saw my baby pop up on the ultrasound. Scared because I knew giving birth would hurt. A lot. I have a low pain tolerance as it is, and I dreaded his due date with each passing month. I had a HORRIBLE birthing experience, one that nearly killed me, and one that left me struggling with depression for the next year…

            However, I know that making decisions based off of feelings is not a wise thing to do. Just because I don’t feel like going through with something doesn’t mean I should listen to my feelings. I don’t want to obey the speed limit, I don’t want to get out of bed and feed my kid, I don’t want to do a lot of things but I do them anyway because it’s the right thing to do. I chose to have sex. No one forced me at a gun point, I did it of my own free will. Some days I’m glad I stuck with my decision. There’s nothing like seeing my son giggle and smile. Other days, when he’s screaming at the top of his lungs at the grocery store, I want to just leave the grocery cart in the middle of the aisle and run in the opposite direction, but that would be rude to everyone else shopping now wouldn’t it? Feelings change, but consequences to actions, like having sex and getting pregnant, go hand in hand. (Not in every instance, but it is the natural outcome regardless.)

          • Body image vs health??

            Ummm… except vets perform spays on pregnant pets ALL the time.

            Babies shouldn’t be punishments.

          • Dani

            ABSOLUTELY correct!

          • Mark Furgal

            no wonder you use “body image vs health” instead of a real name..
            you are a piece of work..

          • Body image vs health??

            Yup. You got me. *Eyeroll*

          • gpearl

            You act like you and the baby are just parting ways when you say “You DO realize a pregnant person is ALSO involved in a pregnancy, right? She matters too?” The baby’s life is ended, and you go on with your previous lifestyle. You win, baby dies. Can you imagine the baby’s luck of being held in a holding cell, marked for execution so you won’t be bothered? The baby didn’t ask for you to be it’s mother, But drew the short straw of mother’s who was so careless about a possible pregnancy and now takes no responsibility for their mistake. Baby has to go, because you gambled and lost, so baby is executed and you get to go back to the gambling table. It is conveniently re-labeled an object and removed, not for the health of the mother, but for the lifestyle of the mother.

          • Body image vs health??

            Gambled? Is that what we’re labeling sex now? Women don’t deserve to have sex unless it’s for procreation? And pregnancy isn’t a “bother,” it is painful and unpleasant. It can kill you.

          • gpearl

            Gamble.verb ˈgam-bəl..to risk losing (something valuable or important) in order to do or achieve something,in your case, an orgasm. But you get to change the odds. You just kill it without paying up. The baby is the one who pays your debt with their life. Nice odds in your favor. You can have sex, but take precautions. But you don’t want the precautions, you want the ultimate experience of an orgasm at the risk of the life of a baby. If a pregnancy can kill you, you have a choice and a decision that is valid. But you and I both know, it probably won’t kill you, and you’ll just have to get up at 2 am and feed the baby, or at the least, bring it somewhere to be adopted so it won’t have a selfish mother who feels orgasms are more important than the baby’s life.

          • Body image vs health??

            Couple things. First, orgasm isn’t the reason most people have sex. If it was I can think of quite a few men who would never have sex again since they aren’t satisfying. Second, orgasm can be achieved without sex. There are other reasons to have sex. Clearly. And, 1/2-2/3 of women seeking abortions were “taking precautions.”

          • gpearl

            Then what was so important to risk the life of a baby? Was the experience that important to end a baby’s life? Why was there no planning involved? If 1/2 to 2/3 of women were taking precautions, then I wonder what precautions. Pulling out? That’s not a precaution. I don’t know where these statistics come from. If we don’t have an effective birth control method, that half the women are getting pregnant regardless of medical advancement in this area, then we have not progressed as far medically as I thought. If there is no effective method to control pregnancy, then it needs to be postponed since a murder is about to happen, just for the “experience”.

          • Body image vs health??

            Sex is not just for reproduction. It is an important part of human relationships. Stop denying that because you feel that abortion is wrong. Stop acting like sex is just a fun activity that people partake in because they like orgasms. It’s an important part of bonding in relationships. Very important. Stop trivializing it. It’s incredibly offensive. And, very damaging. Do you shame men for wanting sex? Even if they don’t want kids? That is all types of life birth control, pills, condoms, etc. And. As it turns out NO form of birth control is 100% effective. I met a few women who had IUDs that got pregnant. One woman had three types of birth control fail her, all considered to be very to extremely effective. This happens. No. Our medical technology is sadly lacking when it comes to reproductive health. Especially considering how little birth control exists for men.

          • gpearl

            There are other ways to bond than having sex if there is a risk of pregnancy. By just jumping in bed and doing your thing is irresponsible. The most effective form of birth control is abstinence. If you can’t control yourself you should have to pay for your actions instead of destroying the outcome and waiting for the next guy to buy you a couple of drinks and repeating the murder.
            I shame men for not being responsible too. You both have responsibility to raise the child or at least give the child a chance at life. What terrible luck for a child to be produced by two irresponsible parents who value their wild nights more than their baby’s welfare. What a nightmare for a baby to not have their parents watching out for them while the baby is helpless and not helping them through life, instead, pounding each other and spreading sperm to create their life. I can’t believe you call yourself adults. Your answers are disgraceful and narcissistic. I am seeing an insight into how the selfish mind works with complete disregard for life. At first, I didn’t know if you were just misinformed, but now I see how a baby killer thinks. Dr Gosnell obviously felt the same way. He is in prison.

          • Body image vs health??

            Again. An implication that women who have abortions are just sluts. I think its selfish to assume your beliefs are the beliefs of everyone. I think its horribly immoral to sex shame people and to act like you are above sex. Are you a virgin? Do you only have sex for procreation? Or is it just everyone else that is expected to do that? And, yes. Maybe I am selfish. Why vilify that? Do you vilify people who eat out at lunch? That’s selfish. People who think universal health care is wrong because it means higher taxes? Because that’s EXTREMELY selfish. And no one gets pregnant to have an abortion. People don’t use abortion as birth control. It costs at least $500 to have an abortion, vs pills that are about $10/month. Don’t be ignorant and assume women are out there having like 10 abortions. That’s blatantly false.

          • gpearl

            No sluts are sluts, and some practice birth control. Some want sex no matter the consequence. Many people wait until they are married. Having sex, uncontrollably, and killing the outcome and not feeling guilt because of it, is pretty hideous. Sex was meant for mating, enjoyment between sexes, and monogamous, which means they might have a baby. Recklessly screwing each other and fertilizing the egg, and then paying a professional to act as a hitman and go after the baby, is criminal in my opinion. The baby is waiting for someone to nurture them and feel a human touch, instead, their parents have hired a hitman for $500 to invade their body, and the very first touch they receive, is a person looking to end their life with extreme pain as they cry out for help from the very person who is supposed to protect them. I vilify selfishness only when it destroys another life. You can be as selfish as you want if it didn’t affect someone else. Comparing eating out for lunch to destroying a life is no comparison. Eat out all you want and be selfish. Don’t kill another human for a good time in bed.

          • Drika

            I started to, but gave up — I’m not going to read everything single thing that was posted here. But, Body image vs health??, seriously, your constant aggressive comebacks and responses are aggravating. Go do something useful with your life, like give your mom a hug and thank her for not killing you before you became the annoying little person you are. Me? I’m off to take care of my baby. Have a good life and stop annoying people who aren’t going to change their minds, only get more and more pissed off at you.

          • Micah Susan Pick

            NARCISSISM NARCISSISM NARCISSISM

          • smartalx

            The sexual bond is properly formed after marriage.

          • Doc

            You are an absolute Evil Sociopath, there can be no other explanation, there is no other words for it, everyone here is trying to reason with your humanity, unfortunately you don’t have any.

          • Body image vs health??

            I could easily say the same about you. Since you ignore pregnant people’s suffering because of a fetus.

          • HUMAN

            The fetus which is a human, that will get ripped apart in an abortion, hence, much greater suffering. One life is NOT worth more than the other. If the mother is suffering, it will be for 9 months. The baby gets robbed of 80+ years of their life!!!

          • toni

            Oh man, 1 hour of pain for a kid for the rest of your life. bet you cry everytime you bump your toe, Another newsflash! abortion kills many more people than pregnancy does!!! So stop replying. No one wants you here.

          • Nicole Sheets

            WOW! Again, NEWSFLASH: YOU are the one that is ignoring the mothers suffering when she does abort! It HAPPENS! You are the one that is ignoring the feelings of loss and sadness that comes at the hands of an abortion! Or at the hands of a mother miscarrying due to having an abortion before that. There is nothing that you have said that can’t be rebuted and for good reason yet you keep on..

          • GardenFlora

            Just because someone’s opinion is different than your opinion does not mean that they are an Evil Sociopath. We do not need more political stratification, which is an environment where even members of the same party disagree with one another.

          • An aspirin between your knees

            But you are gambling when you have sex, the most popular birth control methods fail by 18-28% (per CDC statistics). And by your definition that having human DNA doesn’t make you a Person is horrifying, by that same argument human slaves could be defined as “Non-Human”. Some handicapped people are not autonomous – are they not human? Coma patients are not Autonomous – are they not human? Some elderly people are not Autonomous – are they not human? A Fetus is developmentally beyond 8 weeks and all vital organs (brain, lungs, liver, kidneys and intestines) are fully formed. I would like to know your definition of “a Fetus doesn’t think”, do you think that the brain just sits there? They have measurable brain wave activity. They “breathe” in amniotic fluid. If you can’t take care of a child, if you don’t want at child to “punish” you or hold you back from getting on with your life then the simplest non-invasive humane method of birth control is ABSTINENCE, do not have sex unless you are willing to responsibly deal with Nature’s intended outcome. Even Planned Parenthood admits this – Planned Parenthood’s Frederick S. Jaffe, in Abortion Politics, admitted that “…even if everyone were to practice contraception, and use the most effective medically prescribed methods, there would still be a very large number of unwanted pregnancies.”

          • Body image vs health??

            Human DNA is not the ONLY requirement for personhood. Cancer has human DNA. Autonomy isn’t the same as independent. All the people you listed are autonomous even though they depend on people to live. They are not physically inside another person. That’s what autonomy means. A fetus is not fully formed at 8 weeks. That is complete hooey. Fetuses do not think because the fetus does not even have a cerebral cortex until 28 weeks.

          • HUMAN

            No it’s not lol. If I cut off my arm, would it be a person? lmao… you need a biology class or something…

          • HUMAN

            I misread your comment, I apologize. But what do you deem personhood? Is it a beating heart? The ability to grow? To think? What?

          • Rebecca Sims Dale

            “You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.”

          • Rebecca Sims Dale

            I’m referring to autonomy. It technically means the ability to self govern. A 40 week born baby has no more ability to self govern than a 40 week unborn fetus.

          • Highliter
          • Christy000

            So conjoined twins are autonomous and unborn fetuses aren’t, because they aren’t inside of the other twin? Okaaaay? :/

          • HUMAN

            So can abortion! And NEWSFLASH! It kills a baby every time!!

          • vforba

            When you decide to have sex, you have to realize that procreation is a real possibility. That’s why it’s not just for entertainment purposes. Sure it’s great, feels good etc. But ultimately if you can’t handle the responsibility of possibly becoming a parent as a result of your actions. Then no, you shouldn’t be having sex. Sex is not a game, it is not just some we do to feel good. There are emotions that are involved.

          • Bex

            “Being a fertilized egg does not make one a person. It makes one a fertilized egg” This is true. That is why within 18 days from the time you have sex that egg can be removed without the medical procedure of an abortion. There is a reason that plan B (which is a large dose of progesterone that is used to make the body believe there is enough tissue to have a menstrual cycle) has a limit on when it can be used.

            If I came to you the day before my child was due would you give me the same advice? “Being NO LONGER physically connected to another person to allow you to live makes you a person. This isn’t a difficult concept” I can agree that logically speaking you believe as long as it is connected to you that the “fetus” “child” “human” attached is part of your body therefore you have the right with what you do with it. However, I give birth to my child but don’t cut the umbilical cord. May I still have an abortion? The child is still attached to me. I personally as I’m sure you can tell am Pro-Life. However, there are circumstances where an abortion is essential. In life and death matters where the likelihood of neither living unless one is sacrificed so the other may live.
            I apologize on behalf of the person who insinuated that you should not have been born. That is what makes these arguments unproductive. However, as you know I don’t agree with your views on what life constitutes. I have no power over you or your body and you will do what you want with your body whether it is legal, illegal, moral, or immoral. You have the freedom of choice. As for those who are slinging mud into wounds, “Let he who is without sin cast the first stone”. The only thing anyone can do is hope that whatever they believe is the right thing. It is that simple.

          • Body image vs health??

            Except that Plan B does not really work that way. It prevents ovulation. So if a fertilized egg exists, Plan B won’t really do anything. There is no evidence that it actually prevents implantation. That is why there is a limit on Plan B. And, it isn’t 18 days, it’s about 5.

            Yes. I would say the same thing. I would say, let’s terminate this pregnancy. Let’s induce labor. And, yes, I would say the same thing. Let’s remove that, and I would cut the cord. See, I don’t think all pregnancies should end in abortion. However, terminating a pregnancy before viability necessitates the death of the fetus. That is the way of it. If we could remove the fetus without it’s death, then that would be the way to go. As it stands, that is impossible.

            And, thank you for being rational and for not stooping to sex shaming and telling people they deserve to die. It is what makes these unproductive. I would like to point out that mental health should also be taken into consideration for health of the mother. And, you should consider her overall well being as well. I have no problem with people being pro-life. I have a problem with people trying to legislate what people do with their own bodies.

            Thanks for that last paragraph too. Too many people forget that Christianity is not about judging each and every action people take. That’s not our job. Our job is to help people in pain. Not to cause it.

          • Rebecca Sims Dale

            “If we could remove the fetus without it’s death, then that would be the way to go.” Why? If it’s not a person, who cares?

          • God20fearing12patriot

            Hey-guess what? The conservatives you just commanded to “help end poverty instead of slut shaming” on average donate WAY more of their income to causes like that than your pro-choice liberal nut-jobs. You guys are all talk, and we actually put our money where our mouth is!

            You want bodily autonomy? Don’t make a baby in the first place! Even in cases of rape or incest- free clinics offer emergency contraception EVERYWHERE. There is literally NO EXCUSE to have an abortion in this day and age.

          • Body image vs health??

            2/3 of women seeking abortions were using birth control. And, I would like you to try to get sterilized as a woman under 30 with no kids. Have fun.

          • Tracy

            OK KID YOU DONT HAVE TO POST THE SAME THING 10 TIMES IN A ROW!!!

          • Robin

            In all sincerity, I found it interesting how offended you became when someone insinuated you should not have been born. I didn’t see/read that particular comment, but your reaction to it was pretty intense. Isn’t this, however, the exact thing that you preach? How offended do you think an unborn child is when someone is about to murder it? How intense do you believe that might be? Please, go watch the film, “The Silent Scream.” ALL life does matter, not just yours.

          • Body image vs health??

            I was offended simply because they said all lives matter except yours. Pointing to a person specifically and saying fetuses should all be born except you is NOT the same as telling someone that a woman should be able to choose whether or not she has children. If my mom had aborted me, I wouldn’t know. I wouldn’t be offended. I am not selfish enough that I would force my mother to give birth to me against her will. I just don’t think it’s appropriate that a stranger tell another person to abort because that person is going to disagree with them.

          • cyndi172003

            If you’re going to use that kind of argument it can always be reversed… How does your life matter and not the life of another person (even if it is attached to someone else or maybe your self) a life is a life. What bout in the case of an 80 yr old who is only being kept alive by machines in the ICU. They’re not able to survive without the use of those machines, similarly for a baby/fetus they are not able to stay alive for that time period without be attached to the mother? How does that make one more real or human than the other? By your logic the 80yr old in the ICU clearly is not a human beside it is dependent on an a source other than itself to remain alive.

          • Body image vs health??

            Except machines aren’t people. If the machines were people and didn’t want the 80 yr old attached to it for life support, then yes, they can disconnect themselves. Even if the 80 yr old dies as a result. That person is autonomous. It is not inside another person’s body. This really isn’t a difficult concept to understand. At least if you stop ignoring that the pregnant person is a person. Not a machine to keep a fetus alive.

          • cyndi172003

            The machines are controlled by people. And the uterus of PREGNANT PERSON (there, I said it, happy?) is a machine to keep that baby/fetus alive. I do take into account the pregnant person, but when does one life become more valuable than another? Yes, I am aware that pregnancy can kill someone, but those case aren’t as frequent as you would suppose. And one life is of no more, or of greater value, than other. How is one woman’s life more valuable than a baby’s life?

          • Body image vs health??

            No. I am not happy. You literally just called a pregnant person’a body a machine made to keep a fetus alive. How is that okay? How is that NOT dehumanization? Jesus, even I admit a fetus is human. Are you that afraid of caring about pregnant people that you must call them machines? How can you compare that people control the machines in the ICU to a woman whose uterus is literally inside her body? I cannot even begin to manage the mental gymnastics you must go through to convince yourself a woman is literally only life support for a fetus. How is that moral? How is that even justifiable? And how dare you use that to justify allowing a woman to die so her fetus (now an orphan) has a chance to live? Not even a guarantee to live, just a chance. How is one baby’s life more important than the woman’s? Did you know over half of women seeking abortions are already mothers? Would you leave those children motherless as well? You are beyond heartless if you think a woman’s sole purpose is to bring a baby into the world then she can die. This is EXACTLY what I’m talking about when I say pro lifers completely ignore the pregnant person.

          • HUMAN

            You are insane. Wow. Killing other humans is WRONG. I think you should actually read the article above, mmmmk?

          • SharonA

            You do see the irony in becoming offended that someone would equate a woman’s body with a machine while you equated an unborn child to a “cancer” because both cancer and a fetus contain DNA, right?

          • cyndi172003

            If you would actually read things you would know what I said instead of putting words in my mouth. I said that the uterus was a machine (a metaphor), not the woman as a whole. I don’t think that the uterus is the sole entity that makes you a human. Like machines, uteruses are a vehicle for caring for a PERSON (even if it is a baby/fetus, embryo/zygote) at one of its greatest times of need, without “the machine” it would die. Woman have hysterectomies and they’re still human and still a woman. Lady, you are deranged, retarded, and way beyond any sensible reason! There are no mental gymnastics going on here except the fact that I’m still baffled how murder is still ok, even if it is just a baby, and it just happens to be taking up temporary residence in your uterus because you and some other person put it there. Why would a woman have a uterus, of all things, if it wasn’t supposed to support a new life? Why? Just so she can bleed for a week every month, or more or less, depending on her hormonal balance. Ummmm,… no! And you know what, BOTH of my brothers are adopted. Why? because their parents died. During child birth? No, but nonetheless they were still dead. If a woman does happen to die (which is not super common thanks to modern medicine and the use of life sustaining support) usually there is a person there as back up, like significant other or family member, and if needed Child Protective Services. Not in all cases though, you do have your crazy women who give birth in a toilet and leave it there or take it to a dumpster and leave it there to die. Not acceptable either. How is the baby any LESS important than you are? I bet you think kids are less important than you too. News flash, they’re not! Y’all are equal in the playing field of life. One isn’t more important than the other. OH and I am heartless?? This comes from the lady that would MURDER a perfectly innocent CHILD (who is a product of her own doing) for her own selfish desires! Really, which one is more evil? Someone (God bless her soul) gave you a chance at life, for what? Just so you could deny other people a chance at life. Apparently so. If anyone is evil and immoral, it is you. Last time I checked. killing of any sort is WRONG. You can’t say its self defense because that child that YOU PUT THERE is not TRYING to injure you, its merely trying to LIVE. Now, I doubt I will be responding to anymore of you comments because you are so are beyond reason and are really getting on my nerves with your blatant ignorance.

          • Micah Susan Pick

            Before you just said that a Fetus in not a human not they are, wow get you skewed views on life at least straight before you judge others.

          • Nicole Sheets

            People call food ‘fuel’ for the body… are you going to take that apart also to exploit it however you choose also? It is sad that people keep presenting you with facts that you just don’t want to understand. After reading comment after comment, it seems that (for you) it isn’t about what is best for anyone (for science alone proves you wrong even if you take out the moral aspect of it) but it is more about you just wanting you be ‘right’. I have been pregnant and each one of my babies moved differently. I craved different foods with each of them. They all contain different DNA than I do. When I felt them move, I felt my baby move! Not some foreign object that I could dispose of when I wanted. There is just no reasoning with you, not due to a lack of facts but due to the lack of empathy that you so strongly share.

          • francesca

            Body image vs health, I think it is wonderful that you are an advocate for newly pregnant women, especially those with little support. You seem to be very compassionate & aware of the rollercoaster of emotions (in addition to the physiological stress) that pregnancy often, if not always, brings. In my experience, in a healthy marriage where the pregnancy was wanted, it brought incredible stress & insecurity. I can only imagine how stressful it must be for women who do not want to be pregnant and/or are not in a committed relationship.

            I think that you might be more successful in your arguments if you acknowledge the concerns of these pro-lifers instead of villainizing them and if you remove the patronizing tone from your rhetoric. I can tell your heart is in a good place, but your comments are extremely offensive and, as a result, ineffective.

            Their concerns are not ridiculous, even if they turn out to be unfounded. None of us really know when a fetus is a human. We do not have the cognitive memory of our early years or day nor the omniscient insight to know. It is an opinion alone. Therefore, their concerns are valid, even though they aren’t worrisome to you. Unfortunately, you do not have a way to prove to them what you believe, so arguing with them about it isn’t going to change their minds. Of course, there is always the possibility that they may be right… perhaps someday we will have a way to know for sure, but in the meantime we are all operating by faith in our own reasoning.

            Best of luck to you and I hope you continue to give great support to your friends who have experienced the personal sadness of an abortion. It is sad to me that anyone is ever in a position to seriously consider one. I do think that our efforts would be best spent in trying to avoid that scenario than in trying to reverse it (not saying that abortion should or shouldn’t be used, just saying that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure).

          • GEIxBattleRifle
          • Mary Buerkley

            yep, a liberal for sure, now she’s offended! LOL< LOL< LOL< LOL

          • Faith Springs

            I don’t believe that, given the choice, you would choose to be aborted over your mother’s inconvenience for under a year of her life. I really don’t.

          • Guest

            Here’s an abortion survivor
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sRYz7IDru0

          • Schmoozy

            If the woman didn’t want to suffer through pregnancy, then she shouldn’t have gotten pregnant. You seem to not want the mother to accept responsibility for her actions. That isn’t slut shaming, that is saying that they should use the cheap birth control that is out there.

          • Body image vs health??

            1/2-2/3 of women seeking abortions were using birth control. Depending on what source you use.

          • former fetus thankful daughter

            pregnant people do matter….that’s why so many are given free healthcare if they can’t afford it. The problem here is that if a woman who has sex and already has too many mouths to feed and somehow can’t get help (wic, the church and wealthfare) then adoption should be the easiest choice….but here, adoption is a much more difficult and expensive process than abortion….but abortion has tons more post-tramatic consequences than adoption. I’ve worked in the foster field and taken care of children who rely on G-tubes and trachs….and these babies are so precious. I’ve seen babies who are born prematurely struggle and fight to live and are now thriving little toddlers. The point is that the babies need their momma to survive esp. for the duration of pregnancy, but also for the first two yrs of toddlerhood. Pregnancy IS hard, most things in life are. But you often have to struggle with pain and hardship to reap the rewards of your labour. Its a fact of life you cannot escape, and often the harder the struggle the sweeter that victory feels.

          • Body image vs health??

            I am also a grateful daughter. And, actually, that is false, adoption has more post-traumatic problems than abortion. Many women struggle MORE with post adoption emotional issues than the women who struggle with post abortion emotional issues. And, yes. The babies need care for the first two years, but it doesn’t have to be from their mother.

          • cyndi172003

            You know there are open adoptions and the woman can have rights to see her child? Heck, there are have even been case where birth mothers have been able to get their children back after they have been adopted. Its not quite an end all thing like you make it out to be. I actually have a friend that has an open adoption arrangement, and my brothers are adopted. Nothing wrong with adoption, plus, in a lot of cases if its not an open adoption the kids and birthmothers end up being reunited.

          • Jess

            “The babies need care for the first two years, but it doesn’t have to be from their mother”

            You know what? A fetus doesn’t necessarily need care from its mother to live. People could remove, let’s say, a 7 month old fetus, from its mother’s body, hook it up to live machines and actively sustain it to continued development.

            From your statements on being autonomous, I gather that a seven month old fetus is autonomous.

          • BeResponsible

            You do realize that the pregnant person put herself in that position, right? The fetus didn’t put itself there. She was irresponsible, got pregnant and now there are consequences. It literally costs NOTHING to be pregnant thanks to welfare. Why not carry the child then give it up for adoption? Sometimes, when we are irresponsible and make mistakes, we have to deal with the consequences of those actions, even if it is unpleasant. It in NO WAY gives a woman the right to murder a baby because she doesn’t want to be pregnant. There are ENDLESS birth control options. I am thinking about the pregnant woman here. I’m wondering why you think she should not have any personal responsibility for her actions?

          • Body image vs health??

            Babies should NEVER be punishments. And, 1/2-2/3 of women seeking abortions were using birth control. And, no it does NOT cost NOTHING to be pregnant.

          • BeResponsible

            Where are you getting the numbers for your stats? Could you post a link for those numbers, please? And yes, welfare literally pays for every visit and the birth so try again! The baby isn’t a punishment. It would be a punishment if she was made to support the child after birth but thanks to adoption and “Safe Places” she can legally drop the baby off after birth with ZERO questions asked. No matter how you argue your point, you are still saying it is ok for a woman to murder her child. And if that’s ok, why are there countless women in prison for murdering their children?

          • Body image vs health??

            No, I’m not going to post a link for something you can Google. My sources were LifeSite News and The Guttmacher Institute. Go ahead and Google it. Where are you getting your facts that welfare covering everything? How about for people ABOVE the income cut off? And, adoption is NOT an alternative to pregnancy. And, adoption is actually more psychologically damaging than abortion for MANY women. Many women are in prison for killing their children after they are born. Are you honestly suggesting we imprison women for having an abortion? Because that would be 1/3 of the women in the country.

          • cyndi172003

            How do you know that these sources are reliable, and not just pulling a number out of a hat to appease people like you?

          • Body image vs health??

            Life Site News is catering to pro-choice people now?

          • BeResponsible

            Well sometimes we make bad choices and have to suffer for it. The baby should not have to die because the mom is literally being so selfish that murder is her only option. Deal with your consequences for a little bit then give the baby up. So what if it is hard on you? That’s life. It’s not always pleasant and convenient. Trust me, I deal with people who inconvenience me DAILY. However, I do NOT have the right to kill them and remove them from my life. In every point you have stated, you refuse to acknowledge that the woman is KILLING her child. And that is why people have a problem with abortion.

          • Body image vs health??

            Babies should NEVER be punishments.

          • Nicole Sheets

            You are right about children should not be punishments. And not aborting them doesn’t make them a punishment. The punishment to the baby is deciding that you do not want them so you are making a choice to rip them limb from limb! …. and they didn’t even do anything wrong…

          • Truth

            The answer here is… since birth control does not always work… then don’t do the very thing that creates babies in the first place, unless you are in a committed relationship (preferably marriage) and are prepared to BE a parent. Sex was never meant for recreation purposes… it was meant for making babies AND the bonding of two people in a committed marital relationship to provide a stable family for the baby. You say “Clearly. And, 1/2-2/3 of women seeking abortions were taking precautions.”…clearly not the right precautions…how about the sure 100% foolproof way to never get pregnant… NOT having sex?

          • Body image vs health??

            Not all married people want children. Should they forego sex, an important part of many people’s relationships? Abstinence is not a reasonable expectation as should be clear from the results of abstinence only sex ed. Which is higher rates of both stds and unintended pregnancy.

          • Truth

            When you are in a marriage, and you are communicating well, you both can become aware and attuned to the reproductive cycle… this is call Natural Family Planning. Every act of sex need not produce a child, within marriage.

            Abstinence is not a reasonable expectation? Oh, perish the thought that we ask anyone to have self-control. That’s the problem… we don’t expect anyone to practice virtue anymore. Do whatever you want, whenever you want, however you want… it’s all about selfish needs.

          • Body image vs health??

            You do realize that premarital sex happened in the past, right. This isn’t a recent thing that just started happening. There’s a reason no one believed Mary when she said she was a virgin and had a baby. Natural family planning is incredibly ineffective. Especially if the woman is young and has an irregular cycle. Sex is not a selfish need. Stop acting like sex is this horrible evil we all need to avoid unless we’re making babies. That’s absolutely ludicrous. We are primates and primates use sex for social reasons beyond procreation. Stop denying that sex is an important part of the human experience, whether you are married (many people don’t believe in marriage as they are not religious and consider marriage a religious institution) or if you don’t want kids. Sex is important. And, no. Abstinence is not a reasonable solution.

          • smartalx

            1 out of every 15 sexually active women using contraceptives will become pregnant within a year. 1 in 11 if they only use the pill and 1 in every 6 if they only use the condom. So yes. Abstinence is reasonable.
            http://smartalx.blogspot.com/2011/01/safe-sex-pregnancies.html

            You are committing a fallacy. What you are saying (that pregnancies with contraception occur) might be true, but that doesn’t negate our argument: abortion is murder. You can argue wuth us about abortion being murder but the fact that contraception isn’t 100% effective isn’t a valid rebuttal of that argument.

          • Body image vs health??

            And, sex IS intended for other purposes. We are primates and primates use sex for social reasons such as relationship building.

          • Truth

            Exactly, it’s other purpose is for relationship building… a monogamous relationship called marriage. Sadly, though… many, many, many use it for recreation. Sex, for sex sake… without any thought of the consequences of their actions.

          • bluecowgirlboots96

            Alright, firstly, I just want to say I respect your opinion and every other opinion, but I wanted to ask you a few questions to educate myself further on this argument. I’m quite new to this debate, and would like to fully form my own opinion.

            1. I want to know what everyone else wants to know: When does a fetus become a person/human in your opinion? As of right now I have the opinion that the moment the child begins to form he/she is a human, and especially when the fetus gets a heartbeat-at almost two weeks or less after fertilization.
            2. Where are you getting your statistics that most women feel relief after an abortion? I was wondering if I could look at them too.

            I don’t want to argue, I just want to determine what everyone else believes so I an determine what I believe.

            Cool story: My father used to be pro-choice. He’s a biologist. Did you know that all tissue samples taken off or out of any human body go through examination to make sure nothing is badly wrong with that person? My father was a lab assistant early in his career and it was his job to exam these tissues before the doctor examined them. He would record everything he noticed first and the doctor would make sure he got everything written down. Tissue samples included moles, cancer cells, and miscarriages and abortions.

            My father was absolutely shocked to see the tiny little fingers and toes and limbs and eyes. It was after these experiences that he became pro-life.
            I just thought it would be cool to share that.

          • GardenFlora

            Yet at the same time you don’t mention how the men involved should “Be Responsible.” It is unethical to burden the pregnant girl fully with all of the consequences of getting pregnant when another person was fully involved.

          • lhenry

            Let’s take the argument of fetus vs. person out of the equation for the sake of a discussion. And let me lead off by saying that not all women who get pregnant and don’t want the baby are sluts. However, the decision to have sex (for those who conceived during consensual intercourse) was the woman’s choice correct? That is where the decision lies in regards to the decision regarding how I as a woman would like my body to be used. If I choose to have intercourse, I chose to take the risk of getting pregnant. Let me explain my argument (at least this point of my argument). After my first child I thought I was done. I did not want another child, nor did I plan to have any more children. I was using birth control, but knew that it wasn’t 100% effective and still chose to have sex with my husband. When I figured out I was pregnant with my second child, I was devastated. I cried for months, but I recognized that this child was in my womb because of my actions and at no fault of his own. After several months of being very depressed, I realized that I had to pull myself together because this child was my responsibility. Now, two and a half years after giving birth to him I cannot imagine what all I would have missed had I decided to say he didn’t have a right to use my body and abort him. He is a regular blessing to me and although it is not always easy raising him, he is here because I agreed to have sex (using my body) with my husband. That is where my choice lied. He is the “consequence” that decision. He is a wonderful consequence, but a consequence just the same. As with all decisions we make, there are consequences. I am not trying to pick a fight with you, but I do want you to see my point of view from someone who had an “accidental” pregnancy. I hope this helps you understand even if it doesn’t change your mind.

          • Body image vs health??

            Congratulations on your son. I’m truly happy for you. However that is not all women’s experience. Your experience, however positive does not negate the experiences of others. And consenting to one act does not mean consent to all potential outcomes. If I consent to a date, I do not consent to sex. If I consent to driving, I do not consent to a car accident. If I consent to having a surgery, and during the surgery they discover a tumor that needs to be removed, they must wake me up and gain consent to remove the tumor. Consent is required for each event. And just because something happens because of your actions does not mean you deserved it. Sometimes things happen. You still have the right and personal responsibility to take care of the resulting problem. And, consent MUST be continuous. If I agree to a medical procedure, and change my mind part way through, the doctor must stop. If I consent to sex and change my mind partway through, my partner MUST stop. Therefore, even if I consent to pregnancy, I can revoke my consent at any time.

          • Lanolin

            Oh my goodness honey, just stop. You are junking up this comment section. We get it, you’re pro choice, who are you trying to convince at this point? Do you think that after one of your ridiculously long rants about your opinion and why it’s your opinion and “facts” you just looked up to support your opinion, that everyone is going to applaud you and say “you’re right! You convinced me! Glad you hung in there with your one million comments!” Do you really need the pat on your back that much? If so, I feel sorry for you. But really, just stop. Even if people argue with you more, you’re just going in circles. Be a big girl and CHOOSE to be done.

          • Kimmie Smith

            Oh man, I absolutely LOVED your comment there! Perfect! I don’t know if you’ll see this response or not and I know these comments are 4 mos. old, but I got kinda sucked into the whole dialogue of comments back and forth with this baby murderer and couldn’t seem to stop. She speaks of getting an abortion as a relief as in if a woman was constipated and finally passed a turd and gained relief. It’s mind boggling these people. And what’s so bad is they completely ignore, obviously, the logical and intelligent points made by the pro life author in the article above. Never once do they actually address the facts and points made in any of the comments, they simply just come back with this robotic, heartless script of words. Their attitudes about human life are comparable to the psychotic killer, completely devoid of human compassion and almost a zest for killing.

          • Highliter

            I notice you keep dodging the age of viability
            question. At what pint is a abortion not
            ok, or aare you good with as long as it isn’t born yet?

          • Josiah Ramos

            How
            convenient it is for you to base your entire argument upon such an
            ambiguous term as “person.” It is a sure-fire way to ensure an
            individual (such as yourself—as is evident) spends his ever waking
            hours chasing his tale. However, there are a great many devastating
            flaws (particularly logical fallicies) in your argument. Your first
            fallacy is your reliance on the ambiguous term “person” as the
            foundational premise by which you base the rest of your follow
            deductions. If you want to be understood, speak clearly. Ambiguous
            terms by definition lack clarity. I say this because it seems to be
            the case that you are attempting to make an argument that should be
            so blatantly and logically obvious to your audience. You are failing
            at this.

            Seeing
            as how you did use this term, let’s take a look at some of its
            generally accepted uses. According to dictionary.com, a “person”
            refers to “a
            human being
            as
            distinguished from an animal or a thing.” Therefore, your earlier
            argument that a human being is not also necessarily a person is
            officially invalid. At best, you could make the sociological argument
            that a person is “an individual human being, especially with
            reference to his or her social relationships and behavioral patterns
            as conditioned by the culture.”
            However, this too lacks to add anything meaningful to the
            conversation. This is because it does not differentiate whether these
            are exclusively born or unborn actions/functions. A social
            relationship is not exclusively a verbal interaction. If this was the
            case then even a born child has no social relationship until she is
            of speaking age, and if she is mute, then she never achieves
            personhood. As it pertains to behavioral patterns, it is largely
            attested that unborn babies do have behavioral patterns. Ask any
            pregnant mother and they’ll likely be able to tell you “oh, he’s a
            kicker,” or “she always tends to be most active in the morning.
            She wakes me up!” Essentially, this definition is saying that a
            “person” is necessarily an individual, and typically a human who
            has personality and the tendency to interact with his biological
            surroundings.

            However,
            you use neither of these definitions in describing what personhood
            is. Instead, you have elected to assign your own, personalized
            meaning to the word. Your definition/description of personhood is
            expressly a human who is necessarily autonomous. For those of us who
            don’t know, a biologically autonomous being is an entity which, by
            definition (dictionary.com), “exist[s] and function[s]
            as
            an independent organism.” While this may, on the surface, seem like
            the critical blow to the “pro-Life” argument, you yourself defeat
            you own argument in your following statements about dependency. While
            you accuse others of having a narrow view of the situation (“You
            DO realize a pregnant person is ALSO involved in a pregnancy,
            right?”), you too are guilty of the same neglect. While the child
            outside of the womb is no longer solely dependent on the mother it is
            nonetheless, and to the same degree as an unborn child, COMPLETELY
            dependent on an outside being in order to function and maintain its
            existence. In other words, a newborn child left to her own devises
            outside of the womb WILL die just as certainly as would an unborn
            child separated from the protective life force of the mother. The
            significance of that statement is that both beings are EQUALLY
            dependent upon outside intervention and therefore are NOT “existing
            and functioning as independent organism[s].” In other words, in
            both circumstances each of these children are considered
            non-autonomous and, according to your definition, non-persons. The
            logical implication of this conclusion is that if it is deemed both
            morally and legally permissible to terminated the life of the unborn
            child due to its lack of autonomy, then it ought to be equally
            permissible for a person or the state to terminate the life of an
            UNWANTED (key word) born child up until the age where that child is
            able to provide for his own basic needs (achieves autonomy). Also,
            you (personally) would have to be willing to say that one can lose
            her personhood if she loses her autonomy…and if no one wants her,
            then they are free to kill her in the same manner as one would
            terminate the life of a “fetus.”

            Despite
            all of these logical flaws one crucial oversight remains—the fact
            that your definition of what makes a human being a person is neither
            recognized nor universally accepted. Because of this fact, all
            following statements you make which use your personalized definition
            of personhood as a premise are invalid and at best can only be
            considered to be your own opinion.

            Essentially,
            if you are going to attempt to have a logical discussion you must
            first be able to prove the validity of you premises.

          • Truelove

            Caring for someone and condoning a choice that is easier or more convenient for them are not the same thing. I know someone truly cares about me when they help me make the right choice, not the easy choice.

          • Micah Susan Pick

            You have a very disturbing view on life. I hope you never have children or have the AMAZING PLEASURE of being pregnant and giving the gift of life. Maybe you should not keep defining Fetus and start looking up Narcissism.

          • Nicole Sheets

            Actually, there was a mother on here that talked of what it was like to abort her child and you just chimed over her… and why? Is it due to the fact that you didn’t like her response and couldn’t argue with someone who knows exactly as it felt? If woman didn’t want babies they know how to keep their legs closed! Now THAT is a choice that wouldn’t hurt anyone. Oh! And it spreads less disease that way also!

          • Michael Samuel Miller Jr

            If you’re for abortion, you hate kids. Simple as that. You hate their right to life. You have love to let nature run its course and see a new, beautiful child come into the larger world. You’re an ignorant, heartless moron. Would you like it spelled out in smaller words that you can understand?

          • Jacob

            I quote you as saying “Being NO LONGER physically connected to another person to allow you to live makes you a person” so please explain to me the cases of conjoined twins? In some cases they can be separated and survive but depending on where they are conjoined, if they are separated they will die meaning they are technically relying on their other half for survival. Are they not human? Apparently your definition of a person is not exactly correct.

          • Christy000

            “Being NO LONGER physically connected to another person to allow you to live makes you a person” So, conjoined twins aren’t persons?

          • Hayata

            By your argument, most children would also not have a right to life because they are totally dependent on their mother to survive and cannot live on their own. I wonder if you have had an abortion or someone close to you? It is a common defense mechanism to become a rabid defender of abortion in these cases as an attempt to anesthetize your conscience and justify your decision. If so, healing and real peace of mind and heart starts with accepting your wrong doing and asking for forgiveness. Trying to block out the truth takes a lot of energy and only works for limited amount of time.

          • Body image vs health??

            No, but I have witnessed many many many pregnant women suffering. And, no, I do not condone that. Infants are dependent, yes. But they are not living solely and completely off my body. I can pass them on to someone else to take care of. I don’t understand why I have to explain that very fundamental difference to people again and again. And, you can go ahead and tell me what it’s like blocking out the truth. I know the truth and have explained it very clearly, but feeling emotion for pregnant people is apparently wrong. Only fetuses matter.

            And, really, please don’t act like abortion is some huge wrongdoing. That IS actually really really damaging to people who have had one. But, they aren’t fetuses, so they don’t matter.

          • Mark Furgal

            you are a real sad case of a human.. that is all

          • Body image vs health??

            Oh man, you’ve convinced me. You’ve convinced me I deserve to go to hell for caring about pregnant people.

          • Carrasco

            With your outlook on abortion they wouldn’t be pregnant right. In order to be pregnant the woman needs the fetus. You just completely contradicted your whole argument with one simple statement.

          • Body image vs health??

            What are you even saying here? Because I believe that pregnant people should be able to have an abortion they are no longer pregnant? Because if they aren’t pregnant, they wouldn’t need an abortion and then it is a nonissue.

          • Carrasco

            I’m not a moron. I understand completely that she needs to be pregnant to have an abortion. What I’m pointing out (fetus aside) is if you had the well being of the pregnant women in mind you would know what an abortion does to her body, mind and spirit. Majority of the time it is worse than actual pregnancy.

          • Body image vs health??

            Umm… wrong. The majority of women feel relief after their abortion. Abortion is 14 times safer than pregnancy, so physically, it’s better. So. No.

          • onelessdemocrap

            I work in the medical field. Specifically with emergency gynecological situations. I can tell you that a majority of miscarriages occur to women who have had abortions. It is more than twice as likely that a major complication occurs if you have had an abortion. Your statement is completely false.

          • Taylor Clark

            Where do you get your ‘facts’ from? ‘majority of miscarriages occur to women who have abortions’ that seems more like a opinion than any thing, not to mention there is science and studies thats proves abortion does not lead to miscarriages later in life and if it does, it’s so rare that it’s not reported.

          • onelessdemocrap

            Like I said, I work in a medical emergency department with one of the best tools for diagnosing complications in obstetrics. And I can tell you as fact that when a woman comes in with unexpected bleeding during pregnancy, and I ask her if she’s ever had an abortion, the probabilty is 1 no for every 2 yes responses. That doesn’t mean that all those emergent cases resulted in loss of the baby, but the danger of loss is most definitely increased.

          • L

            I’m sure your anecdotal evidence is super reliable. There are several studies that have found no significant risk to future pregnancy from prior abortions. If more women come in to the ER who have had abortions in the past, maybe it’s just that the majority of women who are sexually active have had at least one abortion. Here’s a source that gives some actual facts on this issue: http://www.nbcnews.com/id/20285065/ns/health-pregnancy/t/abortion-pill-doesnt-harm-future-pregnancies/#.VBtxCUvUG2w

          • onelessdemocrap

            First, I’m not talking about the abortion pill. I don’t know whether it causes any future complications. I am talking about surgical abortions. And my evidence is only “anecdotal” because pro-abortion groups are so good at keeping the truth from coming out. Like Planned Parenthood refuses to or is hesitant to call 911 when they botch an abortion because they fear pro-life groups will be able to track down public municipal ambulance calls to abortion mills. They are starting to contract with private ambulance companies because they have no legal obligation to disclose their use. Why would they need that if complications are as rare as they want you to believe?

          • Dani

            I think YOU haven’t looked into the matter… AT all. Abortions ABSOLUTELY lead to miscarriages later because they cause scar tissue to build up on the uterus, making it an inhospitable place for a baby to grow.

          • L

            Nope.

          • Mary Buerkley

            no, you are just simply ‘wrong’, and you are not doing any woman a favor by having her ‘unpregnant’.

          • jerry

            wrong by who’s terms?

          • Ashfrap

            Whether you think it’s moral or immoral, what if the fetus has major deformities at an early stage? Like it would be born without a face? Or born without half of its body? Isn’t it cruel to that fetus to carry it to full term, only so the baby could live its life in pain and misery? Or die shortly after it’s birth? I believe under those circumstances, abortion is ok. Or if being pregnant or delivering the baby will literally kill the mother. Some people would have it anyway, even if they would die from it. But it wouldn’t be fair to those who don’t want to die from childbirth, to be forced to go through with it anyway.

          • David Smith

            O, it isn’t? How is it fair to the baby/fetus?

          • Marjohna

            There are no laws forcing a mother to die from childbirth. But, as you mentioned a mother would rather die than kill her child. As to the other I suggest you read a book about a family who had a child that was deformed as you mentioned. One Tattered Angel. I think that you will be glad that you did. Please see the child at what ever stage of formation as a treasure. Please treasure life – then everything else falls into place.

          • smartalx

            http://www.nrlc.org/archive/abortion/pba/HowOftenAbortionNecessarySaveMother.pdf

            “Protection of the life of the mother as an excuse for an abortion is a smoke screen. In my 36 years in pediatric surgery I have never known of one instance where the child had to be aborted to save the mother’s life. . . . If, toward the end of the pregnancy complications arise that threaten the mother’s health, he will take the child by inducing labor or performing a Caesarean section. His intention is still to save the life of both the mother and the baby. The baby will be premature and perhaps immature depending on the length of gestation. Because it has suddenly been taken out of the protective womb, it may encounter threats to its survival. The baby is never willfully destroyed because the mother’s life is in danger.”
            C. Everett Koop, M.D.

          • Dani

            What do you say about the man who was born with no arms and no legs who is living quite a happy, healthy and prosperous life with his wife and children writing books, doing speaking engagements and travelling the world? His name is Nick Vujicic… you should look him up… he’s a pretty awesome fella! =)

          • Btw

            Wrong. I’ve had an abortion. I NEVER felt relief. I KILLED my child. It’s murder. Ask any woman who has made the mistake. I’ve not met ONE that has not regretted it. After working with women in the situation (and being one), I would know.

          • dontromanticizethepast

            Wrong. I’ve had an abortion. I was so happy afterwards. It was the best decision I ever made, and I think back on how I could be now if I had had the kid and I continue to be happy.

          • Faith Springs

            Rachel’s Vineyard Ministries was created to heal the women that experience emotional trauma after undergoing an abortion.

          • Court

            Where exactly did you get your facts about abortion being 14 times safer than pregnancy? Or the facts about women feeling relief after their abortion? Do some more research before you start spouting off “facts.” Most women do not feel relief. They feel grief.

          • L

            Where are YOUR facts? Here’s mine: http://www.guttmacher.org/media/nr/2013/08/05/index.html

          • Dani

            Abortion is 14 times safer than pregnancy… Wow… completely lack of education… ANY medical procedure carries risk… that’s why, even to have your tonsils out is dangerous! Pregnancy is a NATURAL process so, unless there’s something wrong with the mother, it’s completely safe. Also, medically, abortion has been linked to breast, uterine and cervical cancers because of the rapid fall off of the pregnancy hormones rather than the gradual drop off in a natural birth scenario. PLEASE educate yourself, Guest.

          • Yoda

            Body image vs health. I come to you as a fellow pro-choice individual to ask you to PLEASE stfu, STOP replying aggressively to everything someone says here on this forum, because IT’S JUST a forum, and go do something more constructive with your time. In three minutes of scrolling I noticed that you’ve been posting as recently as a few hours ago, and you started arguing with people on this thread well over a month ago. WTF!!!

            Walking into a hornets nest of people who hold opposing beliefs that are just as strong as your own and then starting to argue with them does nothing. If anything, you’re making things worse and giving people who are pro-choice a bad name by becoming the “face” of pro-life for all the people on this site who are just as strongly pro-life.

            I’ve said my piece, and now I’m going to go on a walk. There’s no need for you or anyone to respond to what I have said, since I won’t be returning to this page to see what anyone has to say. Just felt compelled to respond. Peace.

          • Body image vs health??

            I know. Someone replied to a comment I made months ago last night and I got sucked into an argument. I have stopped replying to anyone who is not honestly asking for info.

          • Michael Samuel Miller Jr

            It’s not like you could provide anything intellectually relevant anyway.

          • Mary Buerkley

            well, does the shoe fit? pregnant women don’t want your empathy. it’s wasted.

          • Summer323

            Getting pregnant was the best thing that ever happened to me. I was young, had zero moral compass, and little responsibility in my life other than getting to class on time, and working a part-time job. I decided to have my baby- even though the father wanted nothing to do with the pregnancy, and dropped out of school to clean houses for a living. If you care about pregnant people, don’t be afraid of what will happen to them when they take responsibility for a pregnancy. All of my dreams came crashing to the ground in a fiery blaze {or hospital room} when I was handed my baby boy, but then, my dreams sort of changed. I seriously thank God all the time that I was blessed enough to face the consequence of my lifestyle!

          • realistic

            And honestly your baby boy will probably get into drugs because he’s being raised in a low income household by a mother who is 100% incapable of actually fulfilling the needs of a child. I bet you’ll make him pay for his own college education too. Get real.

          • Realistic

            You’re basing this on a stereotype that low income households produce children that are incapable? I grew up in a low income household with a handicapped mother that I did not meet until I was in college. My father is unemployed. I’m paying for my own college through a scholarship that I earned acing my way through high school and paying for my own food and bills with my part time job. My mom is pretty incapable since she has a broken spine with her left side of her body paralyzed. Coming from such a low income household that I must be smoking weed and doing cocaine everyday.

          • vforba

            You are a complete and total idiot. Just because she had and kept her son does not mean he will get into drugs. What a child actually needs and what other people think they need are two completely different things.

          • really realistic

            I grew up in a well-to-do family, but am paying my own way through grad school (without going into tons of debt, thank you) and working a full time job. My parents could more than pay for my education and have always been very supportive, but I am thankful they did not simply give me everything I ever wanted or thought I needed. Additionally, my brother, who was raised the same way I was, did drugs, got kicked out of school, and spent time in jail. Our family’s socioeconomic status clearly did not ensure we would turn out any particular way. Your view of reality is ignorant and pessimistic. Summer323’s child may not be spoon-fed everything he ever wants, but at least he will know he is loved. Your children will learn to be judgmental and inconsiderate. I feel sorry for them and you.

          • M

            And that’s a reason to kill an unborn child? Because he MIGHT grow up to do something bad? If we operated under that mentality, we wouldn’t go outside because we might get mugged.

          • dontromanticizethepast

            I got raped by a psychopath once and aborted his child. Sorry, but it’s genetic and that parasite was evil. It’s more about the mentality of not going outside during a tornado because there’s clear evidence of danger.

          • Guest4

            Omg – how rude are you? Just because she isn’t making 100,000 a year doesn’t mean her kid is going to be a total screw up. My mother wasn’t rich by far and I turned out just fine – more than fine. I am a successful woman and never turned to drugs…oh and yes I paid (and am still paying of my college). I feel that is the responsible thing to do seeing as I was an adult and chose to go to college. This woman made a decision that she felt was right – and I congratulate her on that. She stepped it up and new her responsibilities. This made her grow up.

          • Dani

            OH DEAR LORD… he’s going to have to be responsible for his own life choices??? NO! I’ll bet you’re going to make him go get his own place to live when he’s 35… you HORRIBLE mother!! *rolls her eyes* Low income isn’t what causes people to get into drugs…choosing to get into drugs and hanging out with the wrong people is what causes people to get into drugs. And, a LOT of wonderful people who didn’t get into drugs were raised by low income single mothers/low income families.

          • Dani

            By the way, my husband and I paid our way through college while raising our 6 month old baby, we also lived on our own and weren’t on drugs. AMAZING!! The only thing a child needs to be happy and fulfilled is a parent who loves him/her, enough food to be healthy, enough water to keep their bodies functioning properly, enough clothing to keep them warm and shelter from the elements. If Summer323 is supplying those things, then her son has just as much possibility of growing up to be a healthy, responsible, drug-free member of society. And, by the way… a LOT of drug users come from VERY wealthy families whose parents paid for their college education.

          • vforba

            You don’t care about pregnant people, no not at all.

          • JWPepper

            This is a child that will be born, bring joy, pain, and be the same sort of person that we all are. To say that they cannot live, cannot run around when they are young, is just a direct violation of human rights. The American declaration of independence says we are all created equal, we all have the same rights. to take that right away from someone who can’t speak up for themselves is about the same as a tyrant forcing slaves to die to bring him glory(not perfect analogy, but work with me here). Some mothers might not want to go through the process of childbirth, and that’s okay, but many will rush into abortion without the knowledge of any other options. We at least should get the options out to them so they won’t have to regret their choices later.

          • Dani

            Please show us how anything you said is “caring about pregnant people”.

          • Love and dreams

            So how about abortions that occur on viable babies! They could live, I had a baby at 29 wks with no support. Cut from my womb and lived!

          • Body image vs health??

            Considering that the abortion cut off is 20 weeks except in cases of fetal abnormality or health of the mother, I would consider abortions on viable fetuses to be absolutely 100% necessary when it happens, which is rare. They account for something like 1% of abortions.

          • FlowerMama3

            abortion is murder..plain and simple…no matter what excuses people come up with. You don’t want to get pregnant? Don’t have sex or have protected sex. Not a convenient time for you? Its never convenient. That child has a right to live…and you do not have a right to take away that right.

          • katrinalorien

            Is your argument based on the idea that the fetus is not a person because it is connected to its mother, or because it cannot live without it’s mother? If it is the first, will the fetus suddenly become human if unconnected? So then what makes personhood happen because the father cuts the umbilical cord? Is a screaming infant still connected with the umbilical cord a person? If it is the second, what about fetuses that could live without the mother, after the age of viability? What gives an infant personhood at 24 weeks? Science or scientific achievement? Does our advancement in science bestow personhood earlier than it used to? Do women in foreign countries that don’t have access to level three NICUs have an obligation to come here? If not, why not other than financial reasons? Surely personhood is something that is universal, or does that change depending on where you live?

            You seem good at answering questions without becoming emotional, so I am honestly interested in your response. Thank you!

          • Body image vs health??

            Well, my beliefs about abortion aren’t really reliant on whether the fetus is a person or not. They are reliant on that I know the pregnant person is a person who has the basic human right to decide who or what uses their body. And, I believe personhood is bestowed when a fetus is no longer connected to the mother. However, I believe the least damaging method should be used to disconnect the fetus. For example, cutting the umbilical cord. Easy. Inducing labor if the child has a chance to make it and the mother will have no serious complications. I am comfortable with the limit on elective abortions being 20 weeks. That gives the mother time to discover she is pregnant, make an appointment and have the abortion. All well before the fetus is even remotely viable. After that mark, I believe abortion must be accessible to save the mother and in cases of fetal abnormality that cannot be reasonably easily repaired (cleft palate, etc.) and that could not be discovered relatively easily earlier. I honestly wish we lived in a society where it was almost if not just as easy to raise a child with disabilities. As it stands, it is very very difficult and expensive. It would be cruel of me to force someone to raise a child in that situation with limited resources. I wish we lived in a society where abortion was never necessary. Maybe we will some day. But until we get there, it needs to be an option. The rates should be reduced because it can be emotionally traumatic. Especially considering the stigma thrown at them by people like the writer of this article. Accidental pregnancy itself is incredibly traumatic. I care more about reducing the trauma associated with accidental pregnancy than abortion. I believe keeping people out of that situation in the first place is best.

          • katrinalorien

            Ah, I think I am beginning to understand your viewpoint, thank you for replying!

            May I ask you, then, do you think the least damaging way to the fetus or to the mother? Because in some cases (obviously cutting the umbilical cord would be one example) both are the same, but I can see instances where it might not be the case. Of course, as the fetus is not a person until disconnected from the mother I suppose your answer will be the least damaging way possible to the mother?

            Do you believe that because it is inconvenient for a disabled child to live, it should be aborted if the parents desire it? What if the mother is fully capable of carrying the child for nine months, delivering it, then giving it to willing parents? Does that mean that fetus has the ability to live? I don’t understand how the birth mother is forced, in our society at least, to raise the child. I understand that it may become the responsibility of the state, or of foster parents, and may not have the idyllic life that is bestowed on perfectly “normal” children, but we don’t kill children that don’t get the best of lives after they are born, so why is it a concern from before they are born, if personhood isn’t important? When does a body have a right to its own body? When it is disconnected from the mother? Or before?

            Thanks again, I am beginning to understand

            Oh, and I’m all for birth control too. I think the best form of birth control is self control, abstinence! But of course my personal feelings on that matter don’t matter.

          • Body image vs health??

            It’s a balance. It always is. Vaginal birth is almost always better for the mother, but occasionally, a c section is better for the fetus. Obviously before viability, I will say for the mother. After that, it gets more complicated.

            I don’t believe anyone should carry a pregnancy she doesn’t want to carry to provide children for someone else. Not to be offensive or anything, but that makes us sound like brood mares. Which I am incredibly uncomfortable with. If she has the desire to carry the child and give it up for adoption, she most certainly should be allowed to and supported and cared for throughout the process. It’s about her and her choice.

            I believe the right to autonomy starts when it is disconnected from the mother. If it is alive, everything that can be done should be done. As long as it’s quality of life is intact. If is suffering and the suffering cannot be alleviated, then we should not act to lengthen that suffering. That’s why I believe abortion in cases of fetal abnormality should be available. To decrease suffering.

          • katrinalorien

            Please don’t worry about offending me! Use whatever language you feel is necessary, I promise I won’t be offended. I also apologize for the rather rude ad hominem attacks that you have endured. For people that attest to being so caring, they are certainly throwing you into the fire.

            I am actually quite thankful that people that care so much about women exist (lol as a woman and all!) So then, as I’m sure you are already replying about, what about a disabled “fetus, infant newborn” that is still connected to its mother? It could be easily killed without the mother inconvenienced, in fact it might even be considered “healthier” than a right out abortion, which is mostly surgery. (Although that’s not official, so I really don’t know anything about that. But it might be!!) That would surely decrease the suffering of the child, at least in the future.

          • Highliter

            Is it disconnected from the mother or 20 weeks which is it?

          • Body image vs health??

            I also personally begin calling it a baby (I.e. Person) at the beginning of the birth process. That’s a personal choice though, not a scientific cut off. I believe the scientific cutoff is somewhere between completely outside the mother and when the umbilical cord is cut. So, yes. Scientific advancement will surely allow personhood to be bestowed earlier and earlier. At some point we will likely be able to “grow” fetuses in artificial wombs. And when we abort then, the fetus won’t have to die. We can simply transplant it into an artificial womb and it can be connected to actual machines and will be outside it’s mother and will then be a person. Does that make sense? I just believe personhood can only be bestowed on people who are not physically reliant on a single person. Thus, infants are people, even though they are dependent on other people because it isn’t an actual physical connection. They can be cared for by nearly anyone.

          • katrinalorien

            I replied before I saw your reply, sorry about that!

            I understand, I don’t really think “science” has anything to truly say about it, to be honest, unless you count psychology (just kidding ;) )

            Anyway some cultures don’t consider the baby a person until far after it is detached. Surely killing something that is a nuisance to society, and would deprive a mother of its life in full wouldn’t be considered too awful. In fact it is a rather modern idea to think of an infant as a person (http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/benign-neglect/201202/babies-arent-persons)

            My only question is, then, when does a person attain rights? I do believe it is a personal question, and I think it is at the crux of everything. If you believe that it is a person right away, of course you would not advocate killing it for the convenience of another (even if it is really not all that convenient). I say this as someone who underwent a life-threatening pregnancy myself, so I do understand that it is quite something to ask of someone. But of course If they were brought into the world by the act (and, as you say, there is always the chance, isn’t there? Someone who is having sex, birth control or not, needs to face the reality of this obligation, since birth control DOES fail sometimes, {I’m not saying its all the time though, I understand that much science!}) then they should carry it out to its completion. Especially when the life of another is concerned, and they were the ones that brought it about. And oh yes the father is responsible as well, and should help in the pregnancy, in fact perhaps we should require more of fathers during pregnancy, I wouldn’t mind that stipulation!

            However if it is not a person, more like a dog or something “sub-human” (perhaps even lower than a dog, because we can form emotional attachments to our pets!!) then it should be destroyed if it is inconvenient to the mother or to society as a whole. In fact we do that all the time with stray dogs or cats, or even pets that bite humans.

            I think you have drawn the line for yourself, when it is detached (whether that is from the ubilical cord or not) then it is a person. So should, if a disability was not caught on ultrasound that was then noticed after the birth, (some rare defect) the fetus, child, infant, (whatever the correct term is, it really doesn’t matter if its non-person) the thing which has no right to itself be post-birth aborted?

          • Body image vs health??

            While I 100% think people should practice safe sex and prevent pregnancy, I do think that before viability it is perfectly acceptable to abort. A person is a person and has no duty to allow their body to used against their will. Since I (and most American society) deem personhood and citizenship to begin at birth, them that’s when those same rights are granted to the infant. Now considering post-birth abortions, which people call euthanasia is not considered a right. You can argue that maybe it should be, but it isn’t. And even if it was, it is not something that would be granted to an infant since it cannot yet make decisions like that. I am personally against euthanasia but possibly for physician assisted suicide. The very fine difference being that in euthanasia, the physician ends the person’s life. In assisted suicide, the patient ends their own life. And both are generally only considered even remotely ethical in patients with terminal or in curable diseases.

          • katrinalorien

            Sorry if I wasn’t clear! I am really only interested in what you think (not really in what is current laws or societal standards). Do you consider birth the process that bestows personhood, so that a fetus inside a woman’s body could be aborted? Or I’m still confused on if a newborn is attached do you believe it could be killed for the sake of suffering?

            Interesting thoughts on physician assisted suicide vs. euthanasia. You have obviously thought this out very carefully, which is why it is actually quite good to talk to you. I don’t think most people have thought out their arguments to this degree, so you are quite exceptional in that way!

          • Body image vs health??

            I guess I would place the baby still attached to the mother to be in the euthanasia court. Which I’m not comfortable with. At that point, I think minimizing suffering is the way to go. Pain meds or whatever is necessary. If the baby needs surgery, but that will just lengthen the suffering, consider not doing the surgery. Help the mother as much as you can to deal with the tragedy. That’s about all you can do at that point. And thanks for the luck! :-)

          • Body image vs health??

            Also, I like discussing this with you. You are open minded, even though you have your very solid opinions. That’s a wonderful quality to have. :-) also, I too would have trouble having an abortion except for certain fetal abnormalities and for my own health. But my personal feelings about my own body and possible pregnancies should not dictate law. In the end, it’s a very personal decision. :-) god bless. I probably won’t answer again as I’ve actually got to get some school work done. But I thoroughly enjoyed our banter here.

          • katrinalorien

            Ah good luck! With finals around the corner I assume you have a lot of studying to do! God bless to you as well, I sincerely hope you have a fantastic day!

            Thanks for the compliment :D. I mostly just asked you questions! I think that’s the foundation of good discussion, good questions :D

          • Highliter

            You failed to address how a fetus magically gains feelings and
            the ability to think while passing through the birth canal. Do you support Abortions in the 7,8, months? If so how do you reconcile the
            fact that the baby(or fetus as you call it) can live outside your body at 22
            weeks.

          • Nicole Sheets

            You actually don’t stop developing until around the age of 25. So basically your logic says that you are only human after the age of 25……

          • Michael Samuel Miller Jr

            Go talk to the mentally handicapped and elderly who never had or lost their ability to care for themselves and tell them they either never were or are not a PERSON anymore.

            Seriously, you’re the one who has checked their brain, AND HEART, at the door. Idiot!

          • Jon Goff

            There is NO difference?!? A mole will never be a human, ever. It will never develop intelligence, it will never fall in love, it will never laugh or cry, or have an original thought. It will never know hope or failure, triumph or defeat. It will always be a mole, forever. If you could say the same of a fetus, you’d have an argument, and the fact that you can’t tell the difference between a mole with no potential to be anything but a mole, and a fetus that if left alone to develop naturally will become a human being capable of all the thing I mentioned, and more, then yes, you have extremely limited abilities.

          • vforba

            Hey well you know what even after you were born you were totally dependent upon your parents to feed and cloth you because guess what? You would have died with out them! Just remember that!

          • Truth

            An 8 week old infant counts as “not a human” under your reasoning. They can’t survive without someone feeding, cleaning, carrying, etc. (without some ones constant care, they are not viable) so if a mother decides to stop caring for her baby with HER body…is it not wrong? How is it any different than abortion according to your explanation?

          • John Doe

            I just hope and pray that the person writing this along with the people that agree never have children. Children are miracles that deserve a chance to live and become something just like me and the people writing these idiotic posts! Whether they grow up to be successful or not is their cross to bare doesn’t mean they don’t deserve a shot at life. It’s people that are ok with abortion that shouldn’t get a chance!

          • Timothy222

            Why would you throw out a developing photo before getting to see the finished product?

          • Arentorea

            Would you destroy a house without checking to see if there’s anyone inside? How do you know when a fetus goes from “not being a human” to a human? Why would you just assume that they’re not human? Interestingly enough, there is evidence that unborn babies being to learn language while still developing within the womb:

            http://articles.latimes.com/2013/aug/27/science/la-sci-sn-language-fetus-learns-in-utero-mozart-effect-20130826

            Just to let you know, I am married and I have a son. Even though I wanted my child, I was still scared of the process of giving birth. I am still scared of the thought of having any more children because of how horrible my experience was, and yet I love my son dearly. I would NEVER knowingly stop the heart of any child I conceive simply because I let my fear (aka: feelings) control my decisions. I am the one who made the decision to get married. My son did not asked to be brought into this world, my husband and I did through our actions. He is the NATURAL result.

            Can my son be a pain? You bet! Are there good days and bad days with him? ABSOLUTELY! Yet I STILL love him, even on the days I wondered why I had him in the first place. As every parent or guardian will tell you, even when you “choose” to have and raise a child, your feelings of “wanting” to take care of your child are not always there. Feelings come and go. The important thing is taking responsibility for your choices.

            Your argument is based off of FEELINGS rather than facts. You THINK (you don’t know and cannot prove beyond a shadow of a doubt) that fetuses are not human. Why would you want to stop a beating heart? For the sake of convenience? Because you don’t FEEL like taking care of that little bundle of joy that you decided to bring into the world only to murder him or her because you don’t want to deal with the consequences of your actions? Really?

            Abortion is the worst kind of discrimination. You stop the hearts of African Americans, Asians, Germans, Jews, Caucasians, gays, lesbians, males, females, and other humans everywhere simply because they look different than you. (Since homosexuals claim to be born that way, you are a homophobe by being pro-choice.)

            Yes, that’s right, they look different than you because they’re still being developed. We were once like them, and having no compassion or desire to protect the littlest and most helpless of all human beings is sickening. It’s worse than any kind of bullying, it’s picking on and murdering those who cannot defend themselves. It’s as pathetic and wrong as murdering mentally handicapped people for the sake of “convenience.”

            I really do wish the best for you, and I’m sorry that you have no compassion for unborn babies. A person’s a person no matter how small. You will never change my mind about preserving life rather than taking it away, especially for selfish reasons like fear and feelings.

          • Margaret

            How can you justify using abortion to kill a living person? In you’re last comment you said, “It literally CANNOT live without it’s mother. It is INSIDE it’s mother.” don’t you see that this is exactly why the one place that is meant to be safe above all others, the womb, should not be violated simply because someone doesn’t want a baby? The baby relies on its mother to keep it safe, and you are advocating that we should kill this child. Did you know the word fetus comes from a latin word which means “young one” or “young CHILD”. You say that these “fetuses” are not actually people, but some babies are born after five months and survive. Is this baby any less a person? And yet abortions are performed on five month old babies all the time. If you’re going to advocate abortion, at least be honest. You are upholding that women and doctors should have the right to kill unborn children in the one place they should feel the most safe. The killing of children simply because they are not wanted by the people who created them is repulsive. If one is unable or unwilling to care for a child, there are many ways other than abortion. There are ways other than killing a baby. Even if you don’t agree with what I just said, please go look at this video and actually watch to the end. This girl is 12 years old, and she’s doing a speech on abortion. She won the speech competition at her school. http://viralvita.com/video/this-speech-on-abortion-by-a-12-year-old-left-her-pro-choice-teacher-and-half-the-internet-speechles

          • Susan Allen Newbold

            Actually, there is a connection after birth. A Literal emotional connection, after birth. How can a mom know what her child- who cannot speak yet- needs. Guesses? I think not. If you think that, you do not know the development of a child inutero AND post utero. There are many studies out there that if you do not give your child that emotional connection, they will not thrive, they will die. Having taken many development, (physical and psychological and social) classes (and having done foster care and seeing children who are seriously only fed occassionaly and if should be obvious, not anyone can care for a child) you will never convince me that the fetus inside a woman should not be protected. Just because we have classified something by a different name, meaning fetus, does not mean that it is not human. If you don’t want a baby, don’t have sex.

          • Brenda

            Cyndi, bless you. If you think about it, the ‘body image’ person being pro-abortion is fantastic! That means she won’t breed ;) One less ‘progressive’ to worry about. But we can pray to God above that when she does breed, her child becomes a conservative thinker.

          • Sue

            Amen, my exact point too.

          • Free in Christ

            Who hurt you?

          • Body image vs health??

            Why do you think anyone hurt me? Because I care more about women than fetuses?

          • Free in Christ

            Oh no, that’s not the reason I asked the question.
            I am sorry that you hurt; I truly am.

          • Body image vs health??

            We ALL hurt. If you really care, fix the problems. Fix the problems that force women to seek abortions. Don’t apologize to me. I’m fine. I have people who love me who are making my life better. Go out in the world and seek to end poverty. Fight to raise the minimum wage. Fight to make paid maternity leave a legal mandate. If you really care about people in pain, fight to protect them. Don’t shame them. Again, don’t shame them.

            I really do appreciate people who use their faith for good. Go out and do good. DO NOT SHAME. I feel that I shouldn’t have to say that, as I thought Jesus made that pretty clear, but I find myself saying it again and again. Shaming people who have done things you deem immoral is not okay. It won’t fix anything. It will just make them feel bad. It drives them away from religion. It makes them feel they don’t belong. Accept people for who they are. Accept them despite what you consider mistakes. You aren’t God. We are all doing our best at living life. God knows that and will judge accordingly. Pick people up when they fall. Make sure they can take care of themselves. If they can’t, but they are trying, address the problems in the system that prevent them from being able to.

            Thank you for your concern, but don’t waste it on me. I’m doing just fine. I am honestly grateful. I only request that you turn that concern on people who are truly suffering and that you can help. My suffering will pass in a year or four. Depending on how much I like the next stage of my education. Stress is temporary. But, you can fight to make pregnancy easier socially. You can fight to end the stigma associated with teen parenting. You can fight to make it easier to raise a child and go to school. If you do just a few of those things, you CAN reduce the abortion rate without increasing the suffering of already born women. That is the compassionate route. I encourage. No, I plead people to do that. I would love nothing more than that. Nothing.

          • Free in Christ

            I’m afraid you have stereotyped me as bringing shame on you or other women, and I am sorry you feel that way; if you do go back and read my replies to you, you’ll find no condemnation.

            I am not called to “fix” anyone. I do stand on the truth, and I do “fight” for blinded eyes to be opened, but then again, you are assuming I am “saying’ a lot of things by simply reading your angry (I assume you would prefer the word passionate) words and asking you a simple question.

            I don’t see women different; I see women just like men, children, babies, and fetuses.

            I have felt a child in my womb. I have been scared. I have been angry that I was pregnant. I have barely lived through depression. I have walked into a crisis pregnancy center not knowing where to turn and believing lies that my mind played over and over again about an unknown future. And I see one out of three women and men a day that live under the guilt of having an abortion. I am THANKFUL God sent someone to talk to me who understood and that I listened to. . . . I trusted; I am a testimony of not having an abortion. And to take it further, I am a testimony on not being aborted when a team of doctors advised my mom that I would be born a mere vegetable. Yes, it was her right by law, but she knew better.

            You see, it’s not about screaming your rants or me holding a picket sign in your face saying, “it’s a baby!” Because I don’t.

            It’s about being woke in the night with the reliving of jerking sensations of that “fetus” being melted or dismembered inside of your body. The cold chills the table sends up your back as you remember laying back and the smell of everything in that room. It’s living in SHAME when no one says a word or insinuates any judgement. The shame of knowing what you chose. Though I have chosen life for all three of my children, I have held young girls and women who regret. I speak the life of Christ into these and lead them to forgive themselves.

            You know what I stand for? I stand for the healing of these women and men who have aborted their babies. I fight for the truth of what abortion is (every detail from the “fetus,” to the “procedure,” to the “passing” the limp, lifeless “tissue”) and how it effects women and men, physically and emotionally. Because we are created to live and to give life, we have to lie to ourselves and use terms that make us feel better at the time, but the truth is within us and eventually it will come out.

            I have never met anyone who truly regrets being born and prefer to had been aborted.

            Keep repeating your rants to yourself to cover the wounds, but they will never heal until you confess the truth and allow forgiveness to destroy the shame.

            No, I’m not religious, and religion is the last thing I want to bring anyone to. But I am a child of God and so are you ;)

            Blessings!

          • bakakurisu

            *sigh*

            You pro-aborts just LOVE your petty, impertinent diatribe, don’t you?

            We’re not talking about any war of ‘fetuses vs. women’ here; despite what you’ve been brainwashed to believe from watching “The View”.

            We’re talking about the right to live vs. selfish desires.

            Get over yourself – you are the villain in this fight, and history will be ashamed of you.

          • Body image vs health??

            It is NOT selfish desire that drives me. Pregnancy is a VERY difficult thing to go through, even when it is wanted. To force someone to go through that against their will is incredibly cruel. Especially considering our country’s complete disregard for protecting pregnant women and single mothers.

            History will not be ashamed of me, contrary to your belief. History ALWAYS moves in the direction of bodily autonomy. And, NO ONE, not even my living children have the right to take my bodily autonomy away from me. Why do you afford fetuses that right?

          • Kirah

            To force a woman to be pregnant and have a baby would be for her to be raped and held I a basement until she had the child. To have a child after having consensual sex is called responsibility and taking accountability for her own actions.

          • bakakurisu

            Oh? Is sex not a self-serving desire? Is killing someone just because you wanted to have sex not selfish?

            Again, no one’s forcing women to be pregnant… And you talk about “cruelty”??? Do you even know what abortion is, Dear? You support children being ground into a slurry and sucked through a tube, or ripped apart and callously dumped into a bioahazard bag by a doctor at his/her mother’s request, and WE are the cruel ones????

            History moves in the direction of human rights. Without the right to live, no other rights are possible. Try to keep up with the news, Hon’ – your holocaust is on its way out.

          • Body image vs health??

            But if you REALLY want an answer, it was people JUST like you. Sex shaming people who think that women’s place should be in the home making babies. People who act like MY life means less than the developing (read, NOT YET) person inside me. People who act like MY only reason in life is pushing out a son for my husbands sake. I DO NOT MATTER LESS THAN MY HUSBAND. I DO NOT MATTER LESS THAN A FETUS. NO WOMAN MATTERS LESS THAN A POTENTIAL. REAL, ACTUAL PEOPLE MEAN MORE THAN WHAT COULD BE.

          • bakakurisu

            WOW… Your ignorance is mind-boggling.

            First of all, just to get semantics out of the way:
            ________________________
            person per·son (pûr’sən)
            n.

            A living human.

            The composite of characteristics that make up an individual personality; the self.

            The living body of a human.

            Physique and general appearance.

            The American Heritage® Stedman’s Medical Dictionary
            Copyright © 2002, 2001, 1995 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company.
            ______________________________
            Note that this is from a MEDICAL dictionary.

            Secondly, a PERSON does not achieve distinct self-awareness and cognizance until a few months to two years after birth. Do you support infanticide? …And what about people in a coma?

            Third, you forget the inherent, UNIQUE obligation parents have to their children; if some random street-urchin collapses and dies of starvation and dies outside of your house, it’s tragic, but not your fault – you are not charged with any crime. However, if your OWN child collapses and dies of starvation, you are charged with homicide.

            Fourth, you forget the simple fact that pregnancy is not an arbitrary affliction (a common mistake you pro-aborts willfully make); how much sense does it make to put someone into a situation that you don’t want them to be in, then slaughter them for being in that situation? Can you kidnap someone, drag them onto your property, then shoot them for ‘trespassing’?

            Finally, nobody here is talking about a “potential” person. We are talking about ACTUAL persons (see above).

            The problem is that you can’t rationalize your arbitrary parameters for personhood. You need to learn a bit about history’s mistakes, and how you pro-aborts are repeating them:
            ________________________________
            “..in the eyes of the law…the slave is not a person.” (Bailey/als. v. Poindexter’s Ex’or, 1858, Virginia Supreme Court)

            “An Indian is not a person within the meaning of the Constitution.” (George Canfield, American Law Review, 1881)

            “The statutory word ‘person’ did not in these circumstances include women.” –British Voting Rights case, 1909

            “The Reichsgericht itself refused to recognize Jews…as ‘persons’ in the legal sense.” (1936 German Supreme Court decision)

            “The word ‘person’ as used in the 14th Amendment, does not include the unborn.” (U.S. Supreme Court decision, 1973)
            ______________________________________
            Are you noticing a pattern?

          • Body image vs health??

            Okay, first off, for the semantics, I see nothing in those definitions that are in conflict with needing to be autonomous. A living human that IS NO LONGER LIVING OFF OF ME. Also, NOT a pro-abort. Love that though. Being pro-choice does not mean I’m pro-abort. This is a title you bestow on us since you cannot seem to grasp that we are literally pro-choice meaning I support ANY parenting choice a person makes. (And, no, I do not deem infanticide a parenting choice. Since that is not literally the ONLY way you can remove an infant from your life. Is it morally repugnant to you to give a child up for adoption? Since you are failing in the INHERENT responsibility to raise a child you FORCIBLY brought into existence?)

            Tell me how a woman who is using birth control is willfully dragging a fetus into her womb. A much better analogy is a car accident I caused and the other driver needing an organ donation to survive. Yes, I caused their injuries, am I required to give them my kidney? I mean, they wouldn’t be there if it wasn’t for me…

            Yes. I do see a pattern. I see people being denied bodily autonomy. I see people, who are fully autonomous and not infringing on other peoples’ rights being denied their rights. I see laws that were passed that said we could no longer use people’s bodies against their will. And, I see you wanting to add an asterisk to that law that says: unless you are a fetus inside a pregnant woman. Then her body is yours. Because you matter a whole lot and deserve to live, even if your life infringes on her rights.

            We, as a society, deem bodily autonomy SO important that we cannot use the organs from a corpse to save anyone’s life unless they gave permission before they died. Why does that right go away because you got pregnant? Why is sex such a crime that you lose the right to your own body?

          • bakakurisu

            Where in those definitions do you see that someone MUST be autonomous to be a person? Did you really think your argument through before you belched it out?

            Secondly, you ARE pro-abortion. You guys need to stop nit-picking at semantics – you just end up making fools of yourselves.
            ______________________________________

            Definition of PROABORTION
            : favoring the legalization of abortion
            — pro–abor·tion·ist noun
            http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/proabortion
            _______________________________________
            Secondly, you pro-aborts fail to grasp the fact that without LIFE, there are no CHOICES. The one thing that separates you from us is the fact that you support the single choice to kill an innocent child in the womb, thereby eliminating an entire LIFETIME of choices. If that makes you “pro-choice”, then advocates of slavery were “pro-freedom” because they fought for the freedom to own slaves.

            Third, I never said that a woman drags a child into her womb. In what way have I asserted that women must surrender any organs? (careful, you’re walking into a trap here; the “forced organ-donation/blood transfusion argument is easily and soundly debunked).

            Fourth, doesn’t killing someone take away their bodily autonomy? I REALLY think you should read this article that you’re commenting on – a lot of your rhetoric is addressed, and thoroughly destroyed. Did you know that it’s illegal to drag someone onto your property, then slaughter them for trespassing?

            Again, you REALLY shouldn’t be pushing the forced-organ donation rhetoric… But since you insist:

            First off, we are not forcing women to surrender any organs. Secondly, organ-transplants are permanent – the organ is physically removed from your body. Secondly, organ removal and abortions are an applied ACTION. Gestation is passive – we’re not telling you to DO anything when you have a child in your womb; we’re just saying that you’re not allowed to kill them. Third, WE ARE NOT FORCING YOU TO ‘BE’ PREGNANT BECAUSE WE ARE NOT FORCING YOU TO ‘GET’ PREGNANT. Fourth, who said that sex is a crime? I certainly wouldn’t – I LOVE sex. I enjoy it very much.

            You pro-aborts just have the weirdest persecution complex. You delude yourselves to believe that you’re all martyrs and victims while you support the brutal slaughter of innocent children.

            GET OVER YOURSELVES.

          • cyndi172003

            And the notion that they cannot think is a lie. They cannot communicate yet because they are in utero, in a sack of fluid. When’s the last time you were able to breathe in a liquid? I assume never. They get all the oxygen they need from their mother, so there’s no need for respirations. They will swallow and urinate out the amniotic fluid, so obviously their digestive tract and kidneys are functional. They also pass meconium (which, fyi, is fetal poop) in utero which also means that their digestive tract is functional. Therefore, if these other systems are functional, that would mean their brain had t be functional.. mom can’t do that for them. They have more functions than you want to give them credit for.

          • Body image vs health??

            Um… No. They cannot think. Thinking is not on the same level as pooping. That is an autonomic response. With actually very little brain input. Thinking physically CANNOT happen until MAYBE 30 weeks. At the VERY earliest. And, even that’s still up for debate. Considering even infants have limited capacity to think. And, communication is not required for thinking. A person without a tongue can’t communicate. That doesn’t mean the don’t think. A paraplegic can barely communicate and they still think.

          • cyndi172003
          • Body image vs health??

            The cortex does not develop until 23 weeks at the earliest. At least to a functional point. That is the part of the brain that does the thinking. And, even if it was in there writing novels, it’s still INSIDE my uterus, using MY body to survive. If I don’t want it to use my body to survive, I don’t have to let it use my body to survive. I don’t have to allow ANYONE to use my body, even if they will die without it. I do NOT have to give blood to my child to keep it alive. You can call it selfish and you can cry about it all you want, but what it comes down to is that my body is mine and mine alone. No one can use it for their desires, even if that desire is to live.

          • Hayata

            It has been conclusively proven by science that a baby in the womb can
            feel and can think. You have no idea what you are talking about. I used
            to be an operating room nurse and seen babies on ultrasound trying to
            move or avoid being cut up. Your position is completely flawed. Also,
            moron, a baby or fetus, (if it helps you dehumanize the baby in your
            morally anemic mind), does breath. Yes the respiration is different from
            ours while it is living inside it’s mother. There is really no
            difference from a child inside the womb than outside. So what gives a
            baby a right to life that a “fetus” doesn’t have? So two women who are
            pregnant at the same time. One delivers early and because her baby was
            born and the other not yet, the one born has a right to live and the
            other one doesn’t? They are at the same gestational age. Developmentally
            they are the same. You are saying that something as subjective and
            whimsical as the date of birth determines whether they are human and
            deserve human rights.? how can you really justify that?

          • Body image vs health??

            Except it isn’t dehumanizing to call something by it’s proper name. Holy cow. I should not have to explain that to anyone. It isn’t dehumanizing to call a toddler a toddler. It isn’t dehumanizing to call a Christian a Christian. A fetus is LITERALLY what it is. An infant is the medical term for a baby. And infancy is from BIRTH to approximately 1-2 years old.

            Right to life does not exist. Right to bodily autonomy DOES. If the right to life existed, we would be forced to give organs to people dying on the organ transplant list. You only need one kidney to survive. Many people are currently dying because they need a new kidney. Where is their right to live? Does it supersede the right to not have a kidney forcibly taken from you?

            Yes. Being born gives you human rights. Because you are no longer inside another person’s body. You are no longer infringing on another person’s bodily autonomy. That doesn’t mean that ALL fetuses are unwanted. Many are and have not only permission to be in their mother’s uterus, but she wants them there with all her heart. And that is beautiful.

            But see, I have time and time again tried to get people to think of the pregnant person, and ALL anyone ever argues is THE FETUS!!!!! No one ever really looks at the person carrying it, because the fetus is the only thing that matters in a pregnancy when talking to pro-lifers. The pregnant person is always just some slut who should have kept her legs closed if she didn’t want a baby. Babies are the consequences of consensual sex. But then they are blessings. So they are simultaneously blessings and punishments in pro-lifers’ heads. And, no one seems to realize this cognitive dissonance. I see babies as a very important life decision that should not be stumbled into or forced upon you. I think they are wonderful additions to your life and should be treated as such. They should NEVER be punishments for having sex. NEVER.

          • Kirah

            There is a difference between a woman being punished and having to deal with the consequences of her actions. Because of HER consensual action, she got pregnant (except in rape cases) now that baby has to pay the ultimate price, death. THAT is a punishment you’re forcing on that innocent child because of you’re rather careless action. Sex causes pregnancy, end of story. Yes it’s fun and it’s a great way to express love and grow closer to your significant other, but it is still the culprit of creating babies, weather you like it or not a mans sperm fertilizes a woman’s egg through sex, we are meant for procreation, we just are that’s why they are known as our reproductive organs because when used together they cause reproduction. Simple as that and if you aren’t prepared that you could potentially create a life then don’t have sex.
            Also as a pro lifer myself I can tell you that our main focus is on “fetus” aka unborn baby, because they have no voice, no choice and are considered a cluster of cells. You wouldn’t feel bad for a convicted murderer would you? That’s how I feel, no i certainly don’t feel bad for a woman who made one bad choice and ended up pregnant because she had full understanding if what she was doing, she knew there could be a possibility she could end up pregnant yet she refused to refrain from sex. And if your pro choice you have to potentially think about murdering your unborn baby, maybe that’s nothing to you and the welfare of the seemingly all knowing mother is more important than this innocent baby that had nothing to do with the choice in his existence, but it does to me and every other pro lifer out there, we are also in this because we care about what that selfish woman doesn’t care about.

          • Kirah

            And this is my very personal opinion and please don’t take this the wrong way because it isn’t directed to you but I believe that if your not standing up for what’s right then you’re standing up for what’s wrong and in my opinion killing an unborn baby is wrong I don’t care how uncomfortable you are, have swollen ankles, can’t fit in your pants, have crazy emotional mood swings, lose your social life or have to pee twenty times per day, you made that life and it IS wrong and immoral to kill that life because you don’t want to be inconvenienced by it.

          • gdesigner86

            That does not make sense. A fetus is not something that your body naturally produces on it’s own. Having a monthly period is natural to your body, but producing a fetus requires a decision on your part to have sex with another person. If you are not ready to raise a child, you are not ready to have sex. Once a woman is confirmed pregnant (After having CHOSEN to have sex) she is at that moment responsible for the care of her child through her diet and personal health just as much as by providing outside food once the child is born. Do we call pregnant mothers who drink/smoke/drugs irresponsible? Asbsolutely! Who are they being irresponsible toward? The yet to be born CHILD.

          • Mark Furgal

            do you know for a FACT that it can not think,can not feel, can not breathe?(it does through use of blood), it may need the mother.. but you do NOT know if it can feel or think, I’ll ask this, do you have to think to breathe? to have your heart beat? to feel?? nope these are things your BRAIN does automaticly , it does that thinking and control without you having to remember to do it.. so your whole post goes up in flames… oh, and no matter what you call it,, human/baby/fetus!!!! IT IS STILL A LIVING THING… some like to use the word “fetus” as it makes it easier to live with themselves and live with killing their baby..

          • Body image vs health??

            Yes. In fact, I do. The cortex, required for conscious thought is not developed until 28 weeks. Well past the general cutoff for abortion. Except in cases of fetal abnormality and maternal health.

          • Jacob

            Your argument is invalid. As you said the cortex is “required for conscious thought” but feeling pain is involuntary. If i stab myself in the hand with a knife, i dont have to think in order to feel the pain because i automatically do.

          • Mother Mary

            You are overly focused on the fetus and its ‘attachment’ to the mother’s body, that the fetus only becomes a ‘baby’ when it’s no longer attached … so once the fetus is out of the mother’s body, it suddenly gains the status of a ‘baby’ and can feel, think, breathe, etc. But this baby is still dependent on the mother, or a care-giver – and can’t survive on its own. Liberal bullshit at its finest – you keep saying it’s not a baby, it’s not a child, but then you say that to remove it, it must die. You know abortion is killing … please don’t ever have any children. Oh, and by the way, when I was pregnant with both my children, I never once thought of them in utero as a ‘fetus’. They were babies, and they were living.

          • Body image vs health??

            You can define your own pregnancies however you want. That is your prerogative. But, in SCIENCE it is a fetus. And, being DEPENDENT on other human beings is NOT the same as being PHYSICALLY ATTACHED TO THAT PERSON. See, a baby can be given to grandma to watch. She can even feed a baby. So, yes, once a fetus is outside a body, it does gain a new status. Yes, I know a fetus dies in abortion. Does that mean a pregnant person loses the right to her uterus?

            Oh, and thanks for implying I would be a terrible parent because I want babies to be wanted. That’s a wonderful wish for another person. Did I attack YOUR ability to parent?

          • Neuro Geek

            I’m sorry, but I have to correct you on one point. I am a neuroscientist, and I have to tell you that the nervous system of a fetus is one of the first things to develop. The neural tube is in place by 4 weeks, and by the time most abortions are performed the fetus has developed neurons and functional synapses. Now we know that the ability to form long-term memories is not fully developed until around the age of 4 years, so none of us can “remember” our time in the womb. But that is not to say that the fetus does not feel and cannot think. So you should be aware that the thing you are aborting in all likelihood does feel pain and maybe even emotions such as panic. You really don’t think that the brain just comes “online” at the moment of birth, do you?

          • Body image vs health??

            Except the cortex isn’t really fully developed until about 28 weeks and that is where all of our consciousness is. So, pain may exist, but it cannot be processed until then. Meaning, the neurons may have fired, but since the part of the brain that goes, “oh that hurts,” isn’t there until about 28 weeks at the earliest, the fetus does not know that it hurts. It may pull away due to local reflexes, but that does not signify it knows it’s in pain.

          • mom1257

            A fetus CAN and DOES feel,think and yes, even practices breathing while in the womb. Please get your “facts” straight.

          • Body image vs health??

            What pray tell, does it think and feel with? Or even practice breathing with? It’s lungs aren’t developed to that point until approximately week 20 and it’s cerebral cortex used for conscious thought and emotion isn’t developed until week 28. At that point, the only abortions that happen are on wanted pregnancies due to fetal abnormalities, often incompatible with life and to protect the health of the mother.

          • hans

            Using the argument that Fetus is not a baby is a little ridiculous. A baby is a fetus until born, hence the term “viable fetus”. You have already made a reply stating that there is conscious thought at 28 weeks, but that is still a fetus. By the way, your 28 week marker is also inaccurate and irrelevant. A fetus has a 50% chance of surviving if born at 24 weeks, and while lower, there are chances as early as 21 weeks. So a fetus could survive outside the womb, but is legally able to be aborted. And this is something abortion advocates fight for. Perhaps if abortion advocates spent more time educating about the importance of personal responsibility rather than the right to end a life, this would become less of an issue.

          • Body image vs health??

            Aha! The you’re wrong argument! Perfect. As it turns out, facts can’t really be argued and from what I’ve read, the cerebral cortex is not developed until week 28. If you have a source that says otherwise, by all means. And it is not ridiculous to demand people use proper terminology. A fetus is not a baby. Anymore than a teenager is a toddler. And what makes you think pro choice people don’t advocate for “personal responsibility”? First, we educate people constantly about their options for birth control. Secondly, having an abortion IS taking responsibility. It is making the very responsible decision that you are not capable of caring for a child at this time. How is that irresponsible? Also, since all abortions performed after about 20 weeks are done in cases of fetal abnormality or to protect maternal health, the fetus’a viability is a nonissue. Protect the life you can protect at that point.

          • Stacy

            Excuse me? As a labor and delivery nurse who is there when the ” fetus” is born, breaths…..feels….functions…reaches for your hand……is soothed by its mother and father……How dare you state this . Current research is indeed confirming babies yes babies feel pain documented to 14 weeks. Post abortionists have admitted to the fetus screeming, writhing in PAIN as their limps are torn off and it is shredded apart. Watched them on ultrasound showing they are independant from the murderers body in that they don’t want to be inhumanly destroyed. How dare you. I hope one day our future generation will say to us ( just like the children after the end of slavery) ” I can’t believe your generation allowed such an injustice to humanity” in bringing it back to slavery, we deemed African Americans as “property” , not human beings. SO think before you speak

          • Body image vs health??

            A newborn is not the same as a fetus. And you advocate that a pregnant person is the “property” of a fetus. It’s not a baby. Just like you aren’t a toddler. Being offended by the word fetus is absolutely ridiculous. Abortion has been around for centuries. The Quakers allowed abortion up to 14 weeks. Did you know that? It’s not “my generation” that invented abortion. And the research I’ve seen place feeling pain at 28 weeks at the earliest.

          • David McIntosh

            SCIENCE says other wise friend. The “fetus” can and does feel pain inside the womb. If you have not figured that out with all your study of the subject then you do not belong in the argument.

          • Mary Buerkley

            Have you heard about the ‘silent scream’? Babies DO have nerves, DO feel Pain, being pulled apart limb by limb, or having the head smashed in for an easier passage out of the birth canal;. You are very obtuse as to what goes on during an abortion to the unborn baby, fetus, doesn’t matter, that’s terminalogy, same thing..fetus means ‘little one’. Open your mind, read on this, learn the truth about what ‘abortion’ really is. It is murder.

          • Jon

            Its funny, Body image vs. health, how when somebody is pregnant and WANTS the baby, they say “I’m having a baby!” yet, when somebody who doesn’t want the pregnancy, they say “I need to get rid of this fetus.” This tactic in changing the word “baby” to “Fetus” is used to dehumanize and justify killing the baby. This same tactic has been used by many rulers to justify the mass murder of hundreds of millions of people throughout history. The baby may not be able to think while in the womb, but it feels and develops. A person in a coma cannot think or defend themselves, but their body still needs nourishment to develop. This does not make them less a person. I bet you would object to the killing of perfectly healthy puppies whether they be born or unborn. Especially if they were to be ripped apart or poisoned. Unborn puppies cannot think, they cannot feel, they aren’t even human. Yet you would probably protect them instead of an unborn child. I say all of this and yet, I’m pro choice. I agree that it is a COUPLES choice to have sex and I have no right to prevent them from doing so. But they need to be responsible enough to realize that they are actually making a baby and need to be prepared to care for one or give it up for adoption. You are here, your mother did not choose to abort you because they thought the pain and costs of preserving your life was worth it. If you had been unwanted, would you honestly say you would rather your mom had killed you then let you live?

          • Emma

            First, a human is not a person, doesn’t make any sense. Also, if it is just a part of your body, why does it have it’s own heart beat? It’s own individual fingerprints? It’s own blood type? Morality aside, it is scientifically another organism.

          • sting1986

            can not feel? well that’s
            just not true!!

          • Tracey Polk Jackson

            If the fetus cannot feel then why does it try and get away from the instrument put in there to pull it apart? You know there are many other alternatives. Sorry if murder is more convenient for you! It wouldn’t be inside you, living off you, if you hadn’t had SEX! CONDOM.
            BIRTH CONTROL. ADOPTION. DO NOT BE AFRAID OF THE WORDS.

          • Stephanie Springer

            The Latin translation of fetus is ,”the bringing forth” or “off spring.” Stop hiding behind that word. And also, your argument has made it plausable that a person on life support, on a ventilator, feeding tubes, or in a coma…. has no right to life. Truely think about what you saying. Why does only a inch of skin and membrane determine if we are considered human or not?

          • Lyn

            The word “fetus” is a latin word meaning “little one”. I’m not afraid to use it. Babies in the womb do think. Tests have been done to prove that they dream and that they can think enough to move away from an abortionists instrument during an abortion. Their little hearts also rapidly increase–fear must involve thinking in some measure. Fetuses also feel. Surgeon Robert P.N. Shearin stated, “As early as eight to ten weeks after conception, and definitely by 13 1/2 weeks, the unborn experiences organic pain.. First, the unborn child’s mouth, at 8 weeks, then her hands at 10 weeks, then her face, arms, and legs at 11 weeks become sensitive to touch. By 13 1/2 weeks, she responds to pain at all levels of her nervous system in an integrated response which cannot be termed a mere reflex. She can now experience pain.” Pioneer fetologist Albert Liley, of the University of Auckland, says that by the 56th day after conception, the baby’s spinal reflexes are sufficiently developed to feel pain. He adds, “When doctors first began invading the sanctuary of the womb, they did not know that the unborn baby would react to pain in the same fashion as a child would. But they soon learned he did.” You can also read about Dr. Bernard Nathanson’s work and his classic film, “The Silent Scream”, the first widely circulated ultrasound of an actual abortion. It shows a child serenely resting in her mother’s womb. Suddenly the child is alarmed because of the intruding abortion device. She moves as far away as she can, trying desperately to save her life. Just before her body is torn to pieces and sucked out through a tube, her tiny mouth opens in an unheard scream of terror. After the abortion the doctor who performed it was invited to view the ultrasound. He was so upset with what he saw that he left the room. Though he had performed over 10,000 abortions, he never performed another one. That is the unadulterated truth about abortion. As far as breathing, no, a fetus cannot breath oxygen in the womb but as his diaphragm develops it functions and is seen on ultrasound breathing the amniotic fluid in and out . It also urinates that amniotic fluid. I have done hundreds of obstetrical ultrasounds and I am convinced that a fetus is a human life. And lastly, many unborn children are placed for adoption. The process starts while they are still in the womb. An 8 inch vaginal canal does not change the baby from something inhuman to something human. Life begins at conception and continues from there. This was the accepted medical belief until just recently.

          • abavelas

            Actually all of the things you mentioned the fetus cannot do such as breath or think are completely untrue. At as soon as 18 weeks the baby can hear. It then starts recognizing noises and knows the sound of it’s mothers voice. It knows the difference between music and voices. To say it cannot think for itself is completly untrue and a way to objectify the fetus. It also breaths in amniotic fluid and can control it’s own movements. You have a right to your opionions, but at least be educated on the poorly made points you have.

          • You’re.welcome.
          • Lizbert2010

            I am not afraid of the word fetus it is from the Latin word meaning offspring or bringing forth young. Sounds pretty human and alive to me.

          • Sue

            A fetus is a stage in a persons life. Yes, a PERSON’S life. When a baby is born it can not live unless things are provided for it. If that infant is not cared for it will die and that will be murder. A fetus goes through a growing stage for up to 20 years, in which each stage is called something else. An infant, a toddler, a teenager, an adult, an elderly person. It’s that simple.

          • Nicole Sheets

            Your ignorance is astounding. The research, my dear, proves that that BABY can in fact feel and think. Science proves my point. You are the one afraid of the word and it is NOT ‘fetus’ it is ‘baby’.

          • guest

            you’re a complete idiot… enough said!!!!

          • Faith Springs

            What are the negative side effects (aside from inconvenience) of being pregnant and carrying the child until it is born where it CAN be adopted?

          • Michael Samuel Miller Jr

            “Fetus”: Latin for a stage of development of an unborn CHILD, you ignorant leech!!

          • Jon Goff

            Actually, a fetus can be given up for adoption. My very good friend arranged with a young single woman to adopt her child months before it was born. We show brain activity at 8 weeks. It responds to touch, so it can feel. It can function without a physical connection to it’s mother. Babies have survived after being delivered at 22 weeks. And your last sentence sums it up perfectly, removing it kills it. It’s alive. You think that just because it can’t think yet, it doesn’t warrant protection? Okay a two month old baby can’t even speak, can’t comprehend the things that even a mentally retarded person can and is totally dependent on its parents for survival, so by your logic, it’s perfectly okay to kill it because while it’s human, it’s not a person yet.

          • Guest

            By your own argument, you may no longer qualify as a person. Congratulations, you have been removed as a member of the human race. By reacting as outlined above, you have shown a lack of FEELING. By refusing to listen to the arguments above, you do not HEAR. By refusing to understand those around you, you fail to SEE the child within. By maintaining a view that is not supported by the evidence that it takes decades for us to reach our full and complete potential, you do not THINK. And if you think that we all operate without some form of construct from our parents, society, and culture, then you are also cutting yourself off from the world. A fetus cannot be given, that is quite correct. If you stipulate that you only become a person after certain prerequisites are met, then you stipulate that people other than yourself can determine when you are no longer a person, and can therefore be terminated due to inconvenience to their personal lives.

            That all being said, each an every person has a beginning. Each and every person has a place to start. Had you been aborted in the womb, I wouldn’t be angrily writing this response right now. And yet, I would not see you dead for any reason, inconvenience most of all. Just because a person has no voice with which to speak, it does not mean that they have no rights.

          • Richard

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMzK6iz6uVs

            Lets pretend that in 9 months they could be easily separated and live healthy lives. Lets pretend that the one on the right cannot speak for 9 months for some reason and if separated before 9 months are up, will die, but after 9 months will be perfectly healthy.

            If the one on the left decided to have the one on the right “removed” before 9 months are up, how would this not be murder?

          • vforba

            And apparently you can’t think either. How nice it was that your mother didn’t do that to you and gave you a chance at life. It is not a parasite.

          • MC

            What the hell is wrong with you? Just reread what you wrote, you sound like a Nazi. They believed Jews were subhuman too.

          • Lizzy

            I haven’t read every single comment, so I may have missed this somewhere, but at what point in time is a fetus a person? You said it is living totally off of your body and to remove it it must die. But babies can live outside the womb months before the full nine months is up. So what about late term abortions?

          • John

            Merriam Webster defines fetus as a human being or animal in the later stages of development before it is born. Is a human not a person?

          • 4lifeandlove

            Kinda silly for pro lifer to be afraid of the word fetus since it comes from the original Greek ‘fetos’ which litterally means ‘life’.Im pro-life ans I love the word. People use the term as if it turns a baby into something less than. I challenge you to re read your statement with the synonymous word (life) in it’s place.

          • Not a Liberal

            I am so disgusted by your cold-heartedness. You must not be human. Maybe you should die!

          • morpheous

            Haha. Is it that you didn’t read the article, or that you are indulging in profound cognitive dissonance? (You know, the same kind that causes people to argue that evolution is just a theory, or that the Earth is 6000 years old). Oh, the plague of ignorance upon this world…

          • chode

            A fetus has its own dna from the moment of conception so how can it be part of the mother’s body. Everything thats part of the mother’s body has the mother’s dna. Everything thats part of the fetus’ body is part of his/her dna. The human is physically all there (in the dna) from the moment of conception. He/she is just not completely developed. That doesnt give anyone the right to kill it. With that logic a newborn baby’s life is worth mmore than a grown man’s.

          • Kelly Dansby Quigley

            WOW….a whole new degree of stupid.

          • Guesswhat

            The fetus, as you choose to call it, can indeed feel. If you don’t think so, you are sadly mistaken. Go to YouTube and check out videos on actual abortions. They can feel and you can see them in pain. How would you like it if someone poured acid on you or literally ripped your arms and legs from your body? Or if someone walked up to you and jammed scissors in the back of your neck? Just as you would feel pain, so does that unborn child. What was his crime for feeling such agony? Being conceived by parents who don’t want him. Such a shame.

          • Audrey

            @cyndi172003, you state the argument that a person is not a person unless it can function by themselves. You say if one cannot breathe, or think, they are not a person. This would be a great way to look at this argument, if it were not for the fact that many people are unable to breathe, eat, sometimes think, on their own. Let’s say a middle aged man get in a car crash, he is forced to live off a respirator, a feeding tube. Because he is living off of something, the feeding tubes and the respirator, does this mean we are allowed retract his personhood because he is unable to function alone?
            How can it be morally just to not allow the fetus to have personhood because of reliance on someone else? Would it be also morally just for the middle aged man to have no personhood because of reliance on something else?

          • Marjohna

            It is not responsible to kill a baby – that is rank selfishness. It is shocking to me how little regard abortionists have for any one else, and how little imagination concerning the value of others. A responsible choice is to not create a baby that you do not want.

          • Body image vs health??

            Except that’s EXACTLY what an abortion does. As it is NOT A BABY UNTIL IT IS BORN. It’s not responsible to kill an infant. A fetus is NOT AN INFANT.

          • bakakurisu

            What point do you think you make when you identify human beings by different names depending upon their development?

            Did you know that an infant is not an adult? Since it’s illegal to kill adults, should it logically follow that we should be allowed to kill infants?

          • Body image vs health??

            Except an infant isn’t living INSIDE my body.

          • Rebecca Sims Dale

            Wantedness. Location. Viability outside the womb. Gestational development. All of the above have been discussed in this thread. Which one(s) have acual bearing on what a fetus is or is not? That’s what it boils down to for many of us . Personhood. If we believe that a fetus is in fact a person, then the issue becomes who’s bodily autonomy is more valuable? The mother’s or the fetuse’s?

          • Body image vs health??

            Except the fetus is literally INSIDE the mother’s body. Infringing on her right to bodily autonomy to exist. The mother is not infringing on the fetus’s bodily autonomy since the fetus is not autonomous. If the fetus was a fully grown person, reading a book, it would still not have the right to use her body against her will.

          • bakakurisu

            …And just how DID this hypothetical child get INSIDE your body?

            You know, if you actually READ THE ARTICLE, you would see that your “bodily autonomy” argument has been thoroughly debunked from MANY different angles.

            Here’s a question… What if a woman is nine-months pregnant, and going into labor. The doctor reveals that the child weighs about 10 pounds. The woman doesn’t want any drugs, she doesn’t want a C-section, and she CERTAINLY doesn’t want a ten-pound clump of cells to pass through her cervix.

            So… Do you support her “right to choose” to have the viable, pain-capable child torn into manageable pieces and drained into a bucket, or do you support FORCING her to surrender her self-governance to allow a child to be born safely?

          • Jacob

            So many flaws in your argument im laughing about it. I’ll point out another one. You say that its not a baby until it is born but it cannot be a fetus for all 9 months. So what makes it a baby when it comes out of the womb? Whats the difference from when the baby is in the womb to when its outside of the womb later on in that same day? Do you think theres a flash of light when the baby comes out and morgan freeman states over a loudspeaker that “YOU ARE NOW A BABY!”

          • cyndi172003

            “YOU ARE NOW A BABY!” That cracked me up. I literally LOL’d :)

          • Kyle Ness

            responsible choice is 2 agreeing to have a baby. Sometimes there is cases where they are not ready financially or if there was rape, sometimes other reasons. in those instances abortion is an option. In the conclusion, nobody should tell others what to do. It’s their life, nobody should run it for them or force them to do something they don’t want to do. Too often I find anti choice people nothing more than pro birth and don’t care about what happens after birth whether the parents are in poverty or homeless or even if they even can take care of a baby. Should never force someone to have a baby if they are not ready for some reason or found that the fetus has a genetic issue that will not allow it to live a normal life. You could say sometimes abortions save taxpayer dollars by paying out less welfare in the end. Conservatives do want to cut welfare programs, well, that would be a start. Supporting abortion availability could potentially cut welfare costs down the road.

          • Marjohna

            The baby is not an it. The baby is a unique one of a kind individual who will never be replicated. The baby is not expendable in some sort of financial budget. Are you really telling me that money is more important than a precious human life? Yes, I know it seems bizarre that people would consider adults willing and able to take on the responsibility of their own children, but there are some of us who think that highly of human potential. There are also plenty of us who know that life is precious no matter the circumstances, including genetic issues. I am sorry for people who decide their version of a ‘normal’ life and dismiss the value of anyone not suiting their preferences. I am not anti-choice. I believe that a person has the choice to nurture the child no matter the circumstance. Parents have the choice to step up, even in less than idea, even tragic circumstances, and do what it takes to take care of their children. Or they have the choice to let another family do it. I am not anti choice unless the choice to which you refer is murder of the most innocent of human life.

          • Kyle Ness

            So you don’t care if people that are on welfare have a kid? That kid will end up growing up on welfare and the circle keeps going on. You can’t call it a baby until after birth. If it has not been born it is a fetus. I do support anyone that aborts a fetus if it is found to have genetic or physical deformaties that would not allow a good quality of a normal life. I do not believe a person’s life should be put in undue stress to care for a lifetime handicap, nor should the taxpayers be footing the bill to do so. Anyone born should be fully able to give a benefit to society and work as any other individual. I will not care for a baby or kid with any physical or genetic problems or find out it needs multiple surgeries due to some internal problem which often is genetic. We should be working to improve the genetic structure of humans, not making it worse by thinking every issue should be solved through doctors, medicine, surgery making a baby to take medications for rest of its life, it is my belief that is stupidity. Abortion is NOT murder in any way since up until 26 weeks a fetus is unable to breath on it’s own therefore it can’t be called an individual.

          • Marjohna

            Every individual person is precious and worthwhile. I am sorry that you cannot appreciate that simple fact. You were once a ‘fetus’ and if someone had murdered you are that point in your development, you would be just as gone as if they had done it when you were born. Making pronouncements as to who is and is not human has a long and horrendous history. I do not want anyone on welfare because this kind of thinking is the result – everyone sized up in terms of money – it is a sad and jaded outlook on your fellow man. I believe in Christian charity where neighbor would never unfairly burden neighbor, but would give a helping hand to those who need it. Charity makes everyone better off, materially and spiritually. I urge you to re-examine your hard-hearted pronouncements about an unborn baby full of immeasurable worth and potential. How can you possibly not know the history and implications of eugenics that you are toying with? Please, do think again. This will not go well. Whatever has hardened your heart this way – please let it go. You do not want to live life this way and you do not want to head toward this end.

          • Kyle Ness

            Regardless what you think, it is the truth. I do believe once a fetus found to have physical or genetic deformaties a fetus should be aborted. I see what happens when a baby like that is born into a family, it often tears it apart and ends up in divorce or the father leaving. I for one will not deal with a baby that would be a handicap it’s whole life, life is not worth that. Once again, it is not murder if it is a fetus, It can’t breath air.

          • Marjohna

            It is interesting to me the way you declare things to be truth and human beings to not be human beings. What goes around comes around and someday someone will decide those things about you and I am sorry about it. I am sorry if you experienced the difficult events you described, but not everyone is like that. I know families that rejoiced to receive a handicapped baby and who loved and cherished that individual and were greatly blessed to know that family member. The being that some so easily dispense with is their son or daughter and they are impoverished by the loss. Some day they will know that and be profoundly regretful. And that male who would leave over this situation, well he wasn’t much of a man to begin with – has no idea about love and is just selfish. Poor woman who picked that one. I pray for you, Kyle. I won’t say anymore.

          • Kyle Ness

            It is not in my belief to deal with or care for a physically handicapped baby or child, same goes for one that has genetic issues. I believe in the genetic improvement of humans, not one with a future of genetic problems.

          • Marjohna

            Yes, I got that. You and the Nazis. How cliché of you.

          • bakakurisu

            By your own admission in another one of your posts, abortion is ONLY a “solution” to pregnancy.

            Pregnancy is temporary. Death is permanent.

            Abortion is the selfish killing of an innocent human being. There is absolutely nothing that is “responsible” about it.

          • Body image vs health??

            YOU deem it selfish. Is selfishness your requirement for ALL things? Do you support higher taxes to pay for universal health care so ALL people have access to needed medicine? Because money is only an object. It isn’t even your body. Losing another $50 from your paycheck is a pretty small inconvience for most middle class people and would SAVE COUNTLESS LIVES. Or are you selfish and want to keep that money for yourself because YOU have access to healthcare and only poor people have trouble paying the doctor. And, that’s their own fault.

            And, yes. Pregnancy is temporary. But, I would not say nine months to be a simple inconvenience, even if pregnancy was easy. As it stands, pregnancy is NOT easy. There are literally pages of possible complications. Ranging from morning sicknes (which can be mild for some and can land some in the hospital for severe dehydration) to death. And, the United States has one of the highest maternal and infant death rates in the industrialized world.

          • bakakurisu

            How would selfishness be a “requirement” for all things? Abortion is selfish for the same reason that rape is selfish – it’s a self-serving act of violence against an innocent victim for the sake of one’s own sexual satisfaction (remember where babies come from)?

            I’m not asking anybody to give children any undue handouts. If you think brutal killing is the solution to inconveniences (temporary or otherwise), can I start killing democrats? Can I start slaughtering immigrants who leech off our system and send over $120,000,000,000 (that’s 120 BILLION dollars) every year out of the country?

            …Or should I find a REASONABLE and RATIONAL way of dealing with the problem.

            Again, laws against abortion are not forcing women to be pregnant any more than laws against rape force men into celibacy.

            You don’t want a kid in your womb? Don’t put one in there.

          • Doc

            Seriously, kill versus inconvenience… no wonder our country is so fucked… How about not spreading yours legs, or if the urge is so overwhelming then make the guy wear a condom, or takes the pill or use an IUD, what those too are so inconvenient… WTF is wrong with your thinking… seriously you are one selfish person, as for your fetus argument, it goes beyond that, if you believe there is a God then you must also believe in a ‘soul’ you know that ‘thing’ God gave each of us that is supposed to prod our consciousness to do the right thing… Murder is not the right thing,

          • Body image vs health??

            Ummm… pregnancy is not just an inconvenience. It can be incredible difficult and life altering. That’s before the baby comes into the picture and needs to be cared for for at least 18 years. And, birth control is great, but 1/2-2/3 of women seeking abortion were using birth control.

          • Stephanie

            Actually it does make you irresponsible and selfish! If you were willing to have sex and conceive a child, you should be willing to carry that child. If you don’t want to be eaten, don’t swim with sharks. If you don’t want children, don’t have sex!!!

          • Nicole Sheets

            You obviously didn’t read anything up top did you? :/ If you want to keep your ignorance then reply without reading and understanding that this was already discussed and shut down. Children are not a choice! Having sex was the choice.

          • vforba

            No, it’s not responsible, it’s called taking the easy way out, because you might actually have to be responsible and raise that child. Being responsible would have been not getting pregnant in the first place. But that has nothing to do with a rape/incest. That is completely different.

          • Anon

            You’re right. It’s not irresponsible to have an abortion. It isn’t irresponsible to surgically excise a malignant lung tumor. It’s not irresponsible to put a dangerous dog down. The irresponsibility lies with the smoker who started despite knowing the risks; with the owner who failed to learn how to raise and train the dog properly; and with the people who chose to have sex without protection, knowing full well that the moment of pleasure could result in a lifetime commitment, or knowing that contraceptives aren’t 100% effective.

            Having an abortion isn’t irresponsible.

            Wanting one is.

          • katy-kit@hotmail.com

            No, the responsible thing would be to use protection, or God forbid NOT have sex until your ready to have a child. The ultimate purpose of sex is to reproduce, thus why we call it the reproductive system. Like he said, unless it was a rape, the individual made a CONSCIOUS DECISION to reproduce and it is IRRESPONSIBLE to terminate the pregnancy because it is inconvenient. The RESPONSIBLE decision is adoption.

          • Kelly Dansby Quigley

            Yes it does.

          • smartalx

            Having an abortion is not being responsible. It’s getting rid of your problem. Responsibility is accepting the consequences of your actions. Not trying to hide them nor to get rid of them.

            Saying an abortion is taking responsibility is like calling it responsible to replace a dog you ran over with a lookalike dog before the owner finds out. Neither one is responsible. Both are getting rid of your problem and avoiding the consequences of your actions. So they are actually the opposite of responsibility.

          • Dani

            If you KNOW that choosing to do something that will cause something which you KNOW will have a negative impact in your life that you won’t want to have to deal with… wouldn’t it be IRRESPONSIBLE to choose to engage in that activity? If you KNOW that jumping out of an airplane without a parachute will cause your death upon impact with the Earth, would it not be irresponsible not to slap that puppy on before evacuating the airplane?? Or, perhaps, simply choose not to skydive? How can you say that abortion isn’t irresponsible when it’s a condition brought about SOLELY from a decision you made (except in cases of rape–which is a VERY low percentage of abortion cases). YOU made a choice, you KNEW what the choice would cause, yet you made it anyway… is that not the very definition of irresponsibility??

          • Sara

            Then what about fathers who run out on the baby? You know, dead beat dads? They’re extremely common in the world today.

            Forcing a woman to carry a pregnancy to term when she doesn’t want to be pregnant is punishing her for wanting to have sex, just like the dead beat dads, who never get punished for wanting to have sex and run away from the consequences.

            Stupid males who think they should be allowed to punish women for wanting sex just like they do. Urgh.

          • Ricky

            There are a lot of dead beat dad’s, you are right. And a lot of them get away with it and shouldn’t, it’s very wrong.
            However, that is not the same thing as abortion.
            1. If the Dad was in charge of the baby and said, “I don’t want to deal with this anymore” and left it in a room by itself and didn’t feed and take care of it and the baby died, he would be going to jail.

            2. The courts do try to hold fathers accountable with child support etc. And dad’s can be arrested for not paying. Not that this always works, the system is flawed, but just about every aspect of the legal system is flawed, not just holding fathers accountable. The point is, not many people, including the legal system, are arguing that fathers don’t have any responsibilities to the child and shouldn’t be held accountable, like you are portraying it.

            3. As a “stupid male”, it is so freaking frustrating to hear over and over comments and arguments like your last sentence. “Stupid males…”. For some reason it is viewed as wrong for a guy to talk about something that they believe is wrong that a women is doing. Women are apparently the only people who are allowed to discuss if a freaking fetus is a life or not. If I read an article about some guy who beat the crap of of his kid or wife, or did anything wrong, I sure as hell wouldn’t be yelling at any chick that makes a comment on it saying “You stupid females just don’t understand how stressful it is to be a male. Stop trying to tell us guys what to do. You’re not allowed an opinion because you aren’t a guy.” It is one of the most condescending things that I’ve ever heard, and I’ve heard it almost every time a conversation about an abortion comes up. Not to mention comments like that ignore all the women that are pro-life, and there are a lot. It makes it sound as though men are the only ones that are against abortion, and that’s just cause they are to stupid to know what is going on. This whole train of thought means that everyone should only be allowed to comment/talk about/have an opinion on crimes or issues that concern their own sexes.

            I usually don’t comment, but I’ve just heard those arguments too much and it frustrates me.

          • Problem#99

            And what to you is a dead beat dad exactly? Is it someone who is not involved in their child’s life? Someone who does not exercise visitation or joint custody? Someone who does not pay their child support? Someone who ran off with the girl in the next trailer over once the gf got pregnant? I am curious and would appreciate additional insight.

          • Brandon C.

            Punishing her for wanting to have sex? Pregnancy is a punishment for wanting to have sex? I think many people would say that it’s the natural result of having sex.

            If you don’t want to chance having a baby, I’d think that ‘don’t have sex’ is probably the best course. You will never see me advocate for casual sex for men or for women. I think it’s a great way to spread VD, cause unwanted pregnancies + to break the hearts of people who aren’t prepared for the commitment of a relationship.
            Abortion is not a lifestyle choice. This ‘stupid male’ didn’t make the rules, so getting mad at me for the biological outcome of sexual activity isn’t going to change anything. Advocating for casual sex and casually ‘terminating pregnancies’ is just.. kind of awful to me, intellectually. I wouldn’t advocate for the murder of an unborn litter of puppies, much less the murder of an unborn human person.

          • Isabel Kilian

            Instead of tortureing babies and murdering them, why not do that to the dads? Why kill a child when a man has committed an injustice? Why kill a child of rape instead of the rapist? Hold all parents accountable.

          • Carson G

            uhh if the mom weren’t there and he left, he would get thrown in the slammer for neglect. he gets away with it because he leaves the child with its mother. however, who would the woman be leaving that child with if she “withdrew support”? no one. she’d be throwing it to the wolves so to speak. maybe if girls weren’t so stupid about who they have sex with and didn’t throw themselves at every deadbeat, walk-out moron who has a penis, then maybe just maybe, less kids would be going through life without a father. i’m sorry, but no man who would walk out on his child is worth any female’s time.

          • Tyler

            A runaway dad is the same thing as a woman aborting! Neither should be condoned. And it’s not a matter of forcing a woman to go through pregnancy; It’s a matter of personal responsibility! Don’t have sex if you’re not planning on having a child.

            I’m 19 and PROUD to say I’m waiting for marriage to have sex!

          • Blake Reikofski

            The men are never punished?? Tell that to the ones sitting in jail for not making support payments for a baby they never wanted to start with. Only one sex has a choice on whether or not to keep the child. That same sex gets paid by the government for not being responsible enough to financially support the child.

          • SaudiAmerican

            Don’t have sex with stupid males. Don’t have unprotected sex before you can adequately care for a child. Use a condom. Use birth control. And once again, don’t have sex with stupid men.

          • Jeannie

            That’s exactly why I have always said that the sexual revolution did not free up anyone … except MEN. Men can have sex all they want and escape the consequences. Women have consequences no matter what they choose should they get pregnant. Abortion, adoption, or raising the child are still decisions left to the woman, and there are either emotional or financial consequences with any of those choices. How did liberalism, free “love”, or any of those things the ’60s generation foisted on us help women in any way? Short answer? It didn’t. It was a deception and nothing less. Punish women for wanting to have sex? Is sex some bodily function that you we just can’t live without? Hardly. It’s best to teach our young women to wait. If a man is what you want, wait for one that will actually be willing to say ‘I do’ BEFORE taking you to his bed. Choose wisely. I know that’s old-fashioned (I can envision so many eyes rolling), but it’s the best protection for women against dead-beat dads.

          • bakakurisu

            Ummm… I’m sorry, but are you retarded?

            First of all, dead-beat dads are absolutely DESPISED by society… And judging by your use of the term “deadbeat dads”, I take it that you hate them too? Why? Do you think it’s OK to “force” men into parenthood?

            Secondly, are you aware that deadbeat dads are FORCED to pay for the children that they’ve helped create? Did you know that a man’s entire life could be completely derailed if he gets a woman pregnant, and she keeps the child? Did you know that pro-lifers don’t care what you have or don’t have between your legs; if you lie down and make a child, you stand up and be a parent?

            Third, no one is forcing women to be pregnant.

            Stupid females who think they should be allowed to slaughter innocent children just because they want sex. URGH!!

            I get that you’ve been trained to hate men, but all you’re doing is holding women back. By opposing deadbeat dads, but supporting abortion, you’re either pushing the notion that women DESERVE privileges over men, or that women NEED privileges over men because they are simply not as capable.

          • ResignAlready

            It is not a baby it is an irrelevant clump of cells. It is no different morally than removing a mole. Why should a woman be forced to go through the difficulty and possible complications of pregnancy just to make what is not yet a person into a person. The undeveloped fetus has no thoughts or emotions or personality. It is as sapient as a mole. There is no moral issue with removing it, in fact given the hassle and potential harm to the mother who doesn’t want to give birth to it it’s clearly far more moral to abort it.

          • ReplyToResginAlready

            Does a mole have a heartbeat and operating organs? Does the fact that a 28 week of fetus can survive count it as “not yet a human”? Where do you draw your line of reason?

          • ResignAlready

            A heartbeat doesn’t make something a human. The fetus is not conscious, does not have personality, does not have emotions. Late term abortions are very very rare the vast majority of abortions happen early on and in a lot of countries late term abortions are illegal or regulated. The fetus at the stage of the average abortion range from being just a clump of cells to being closer to a goldfish than a human being. So no, they aren’t human yet. These are not sentient beings. Killing them is not immoral, it is more humane than to force a woman through pregnancy, which has more change of complications than abortion.

          • Isabel Kilian

            In Muslim Countries, ( 47% of the worlds population) women are not persons. Any man has a right to rape, sell, abuse, kill or torture her because women are not human beings. Certainly you agree, don’t you?

          • SaudiAmerican

            This may be common practice to some, but this is immoral and not a common practice in my country. Women are persons and should be revered for who they are.

          • sean m

            Really? Not human? Do a DNA test on it. It’s 100% human. Your argument is invalid. An unborn baby is a living human, regardless if it can speak or has a personality. Talk about immoral. Hitler did the exact same thing to the Jews. He convinced everyone that Jews weren’t human before he started exterminating them. Are you arguing the same thing? Better register yourself as a Nazi before the next election.

          • ADixon

            You are dumb as crap dude….in the US you can’t have an abortion before 8 weeks gestation…..I dare you to look up what an 8 week old fetus looks like, go ahead…..it has a body, hands, legs.face.head, brain, beating heart…it is not a clump of cells, oh and it is called DNA dude, yep, DNA that will contain the babies “personality , emotions…etc…that you are flapping your gums about……and I saw a comment on here about babies can dream pre-birth, that is true!!!!!! I have 2 kids, I know what happens on the inside dude, you need to give it up and get a life, take your liberal, baby killing ass out of here!!

          • Adam Pilarski

            This is just at the pro choicers in general: all of your arguments are crap and easily shown to be false. Just admit that you’re pro-murder. Seriously, I’m tired of the garbage spewing from your filthy mouths. A living human is what’s in the womb. Any living human has the same right to not be killed as you do; the end. Quit making excuses like the Nazis did, you just make yourselves out to be even uglier.

          • SaudiAmerican

            But a heartbeat would make it a living being. You aren’t conscious when you are sleeping either. You cannot prove that a fetus does not have emotions and that clump of cells has turned into billions of people, billions of times. It is more humane to cut off a mans penis than force an innocent child to be murdered in its developing environment because the penis couldn’t use rational thinking before engaging in an act thats sole purpose is for procreation/pleasure.

          • Body image vs health??

            I draw my “line of reason” with the mother. Is she in danger? Can I deliver the fetus without putting her at risk if she no longer wants to be pregnant? I will end a pregnancy if she wants to end a pregnancy. The how is the only concern. Abortion if the fetus isn’t viable. I will try for delivery if it is. I will try to convince her to wait a week or two to make the fetus viable for delivery if possible. I stand with the actual people standing in front of me, not the developing people inside her. Because she is real. She is suffering. She is who I care about. Unlike the pro-lifers, who ignore her at all possible opportunity.

          • bakakurisu

            “I stand with the actual people standing in front of me, not the developing people inside her.”

            WHOA… Did you just admit that children developing in the womb are PEOPLE???

            “Because she is real.”

            Oh? And children in the womb are not???

            “She is who I care about.”

            No, you only care about satisfying sexual desires. No one forced her to get pregnant.

            “Unlike the pro-lifers, who ignore her at all possible opportunity.”

            Have you ever heard of Crisis Pregnancy Centers? They help women obtain non-abortifacient contraceptives and pregnancy tests, they help women through their pregnancy, they get help them get through school with financial aid, they help them with job-placement, they help them get housing if they have pro-abortion parents or an abusive boyfriend (you care NOTHING about women in such positions), and they help them with adoption, and they provide baby-supplies and child-care services, along with welfare, if necessary and applicable.

            Crisis Pregnancy Centers outnumber abortion mills by about 5:1.

            Your diatribe failed. Move on.

          • Body image vs health??

            Crisis Pregnancy Centers lie to women. They manipulate and shame women. They do not offer actual medical services beyond a pregnancy test and maybe an ultrasound. Have you read accounts from people who have gone into them? They are awful stories. Lying is NEVER okay. They have very little, if any regulation. They are often not even run by medical professionals and sometimes do not even have a medical professional on site. The baby supplies they give out? A small bag of diapers and a bottle. That would last what, a week? Maybe? Do they watch those children on site for free?

            What makes you think that I don’t care about people who want to remain pregnant? Because I think they should have the choice to terminate a pregnancy? Did you know that most Planned Parenthood clinics also offer prenatal care on a sliding scale? Did you know that ALL medical professionals are trained on helping people find a way out of an abusive relationship? Did you know that there are abortion providers who have also given FREE prenatal care to patients who can’t afford it? Did you know that many doctors are able to help with adoption, including Planned Parenthood? Did you know that it is illegal to ever perform any medical procedure on someone who does not want it? Even if their “pro-abort” parents want it?

            Developing people are not people yet. They will be if their development continues. But that does not give me the right to ignore the person in front of me.

          • bakakurisu

            Have you read/seen the horrible things that have happened at abortion mills? Have you heard of Kermitt Gosnell? Are you aware that he had been doing horribly twisted things to his customers for DECADES, including forcing women into abortion and killing born-alive children? Are you aware that Gosnell is CERTAINLY not an outlier? Are you aware that most abortion mills have fewer restrictions and regulations than a taco-stand? Did you know that women can be COERCED into getting abortions?

            …And I would LOVE to see the science to support your self-contradicting claim that “developing people are not people yet” (read that sentence again, you’ll see that you’ve made a fool of yourself).

            Here’s my source:
            _____________________________________
            person per·son (pûr’sən)
            n.

            A living human.

            The composite of characteristics that make up an individual personality; the self.

            The living body of a human.

            Physique and general appearance.

            The American Heritage® Stedman’s Medical Dictionary
            Copyright © 2002, 2001, 1995 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company.

          • Brandon C.

            That makes literally no sense to me. A mole, if left to itself, will remain a mole. A fetus will, if left to itself, become a human person. The ‘argument’ you’re making here is completely nonsensical.
            As others have said, if you don’t want to have a baby, the best way to avoid it is to avoid having sex, or at the *very least* to practice safe sex. The ‘abortion as lifestyle choice’ as though aborting a baby were the same thing as accessorizing your outfit, is pretty disgusting.

          • ResignAlready

            It’s not nonsensical at all. It doesn’t matter what something will become. It is not yet a person, it therefore feels no pain, and doesn’t matter. It is at that point no different than removing a mole.The only way to make the argument against abortion make sense is to include the notion of a soul, which should obviously be excluded from medical and scientific research. Otherwise, if we look at it scientifically we have no reason to consider the potential, because at that time all that exists are the cells, not a baby, not a human being. Aborting a fetus is not morally different than accessorizing, when the fetus has no consciousness, no emotions, no sensations, it is not immoral to destroy it.

          • Armyvet81

            I just could not in good conscience keep from responding to your arguments. I am quite curious as to how you think you know so much about fetal development. I’ve already read quite a few of your assertions which frankly have no basis in fact but are arguments formed to reach the conclusions you have apparently arrived at prior to drawing those conclusions. No person can possibly know the full extent of brain activity of a child in the womb. I am a doctor, trained in fetal development and can assure you most of your conclusions are not vaquely close to accurate. Your conclusion that the child can feel no pain would only be accurate at best through the third to fourth week considering the development of the neuroanatomy. If not being able to feel pain is a requisite to justification of ending a life, I am curious as to how you ‘know’ he or she cannot feel pain. If you strictly want to use science, the DNA of the child is unique at conception. Also, without considering a soul, we would have to refer to something giving life force to a human and I am curious as to how you define that. There are people who have been and are in comas yet all bodily and brain functions continue save that of overt consciousness. Does that make them a clump of cells and further, can they feel? You absolutely have no proof of a lack of consciousness, emotions or sensations. Yet there mounds of anecdotal evidence to the contrary. The only way to justify exterminating a child in the womb is to dehumanize it as you have.

          • Matt McKee

            You use too big words for him to understand. lol

          • Jeff Begley

            “It doesn’t matter what something will become.”

            Except to all of existence. Honestly, to make an assertion that is false not only for living forms but also for every ordered form of matter in the universe is about as vapid as it comes. Potential energy is a 5th grade concept.

          • Fact vs. Myth

            How about people get educated before they make the decision
            to murder (not spontaneous abortions aka miscarriages) a baby? That’s what they
            are, say it, a baby. By 3 weeks the baby is not just a “bunch of
            cells”. The heart is formed and beating by 3-4 weeks, with all major veins
            completed. They even look like a baby by 9 weeks (aka recognizable as a human
            being). Their kidneys are formed by 5 weeks and start excreting urine by 9 wks.
            Have respiratory movements 11-12 wks. They have vocal cords, sucking present,
            and early taste buds formed, (by 16 wks it’s known they like swallowing the
            amniotic fluid better when sweetened), fine hair on the eyebrows all of it by
            12 wks.. Hmm sounds like a baby? Even has even has definite likes vs dislikes (previously stated sweetened amniotic fluid).. You can feel
            kicking as early as 16 wks, of course they’ve been moving their arms and legs
            before that. Did you know they make purposeful movements in response to firm
            touch? They can feel, which is why the baby requires anesthesia when invasive
            intrauterine procedures are performed. Since their skin is really thin and
            wrinkled around 16-17 wks, it’s logical to KNOW not think, but KNOW they’re
            actually WAY more sensitive to pain than we are since our skin is much thicker
            (which is our protective layer). General sense organs are differentiated by 16
            weeks which supports, what I said. A specialized organ or structure, such as
            the eye, ear, tongue, nose, or skin, where sensory neurons are concentrated and
            that functions as a receptor. Such as vision, auditory, vestibular, and pain
            senses. That’s right pain. Good to know abortions can be done up to 20 wks.
            You’re not only are killing a growing, developing or some parts already developed
            just maturing (cognitively, gross/fine motor) PERSON, good to know they can
            feel it too. But hey there’s still parts of our body and organs that don’t finish maturing till
            we’re 18-21.. SO their life doesn’t matter either…
            References:
            Lowdermilk, D. & Perry, S. & Cashion, K.
            (2010). Maternity nursing. 8th
            Edition. St. Louis, MO: Mosby.
            International Human Genome Sequencing Consortium. (2001). Inital sequencing and analysis of the human genome. Nature, 409 (6822), 860-921.

            McInerney, J. (2008). Behavioral genetics. http://www.ornl.gov/sci/techresources/Human_Genome/elsi/behavior.shtml
            International Society of Nurses in Genetics (ISONG). (2006). Genetics/genomic nursing:Scope and standards of practice (2nd ed.). Washington, D.C: American Nurses Association.
            C.J. Lockwood, & T.R. Moore (Eds.). Creasy and Resnik’s maternal-fetal medicine: Principles and practice (6th ed.). Philadelphia:Saunders.

          • SaudiAmerican

            So, it isnt immoral because you say so? I would like to see how you are setting up your moral code? What theories you are using and what logic (or lack there of) come in to play?

          • cyndi172003

            At one point in an earlier time you were in the same situation as that “mole” that you speak of. So you’re telling me that you are not human because you started out as a ball of cells? You originated from the same cycle as the “mole” and yet you didn’t turn into a goldfish. Too bad someone didn’t take away your chance at life.
            And if babies don’t have a personality or senses in the womb, then why is it that they respond to noises and motion from outside the mothers body. How is it that if you can play music for them while still in utero and they will move or calm down, or respond in general.

          • parated2k

            It has DNA consistent with that of a Homo Sapien, and that DNA identifies it as separate from the mother. Therefore it isn’t something that might become a Human Being, it IS a human being.

            You use the word “scientific”, yet your arguments have no basis in biological science.

          • bakakurisu

            No, a person is present from the moment of conception.
            __________________________________
            person per·son (pûr’sən)
            n.

            A living human.

            The composite of characteristics that make up an individual personality; the self.

            The living body of a human.

            Physique and general appearance.

            The American Heritage® Stedman’s Medical Dictionary
            Copyright © 2002, 2001, 1995 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company.
            ______________________________________
            Note that my source is a MEDICAL dictionary.

          • Guest

            A person breathes air. A living Human breathes air. a baby breathes air. a fetus does NOT breath air, so it is not a person. If you remove it at 24 weeks, will it live, NO because lungs have not developed yet, they are not available to work until around week 34. Therefore, it is not an actual baby and can not be called a person until birth.

          • cyndi172003

            25 weeks is when the lung are usually mature enough to survive outside the womb

          • bakakurisu

            This crap is debunked above.

          • gdesigner86

            This sounds so familiar: “So if she weighs as much as a duck, we know she is a witch!” (see the whole witch-hunting scene from monty python)

            This comparison you have of breathing is completely arbitrary.

            “If a newborn cannot feed itself and therefore dies when left alone, it is therefore not a person because real persons can feed themselves.” Seriously?

          • Rebecca Sims Dale

            Actually, some tertiary hospitals now regularly save 23 weekers. My OB is the chair at a major metropilitan hospital. He told me that between the birth and loss of my triplets at 22.5 weeks and the birth of my son (just four years later) the gestational age at his hospital went down. It will keep going down as our knowledge & technology continue to develop.

          • Kyle Ness

            It can’t be called a Person. A Person Breathes air, a Human being breathes air, a baby breathes air. A Fetus does NOT breath air and therefore can’t be called anything else. If you remove it at 24 weeks it will not survive, it has no functioning lungs, the lungs will not function until 31-32 weeks. In the end, it can’t be called a baby or person until Birth.

          • bakakurisu

            What is your source for this claim? What SCIENTIFIC source dictates that a person has to breathe air?

            For one thing, children have been born as early as 20 weeks. Secondly, if someone’s lungs collapse and they need an artificial respirator, do they cease to be a person?

            Finally:
            _________________________________
            person per·son (pûr’sən)
            n.

            A living human.

            The composite of characteristics that make up an individual personality; the self.

            The living body of a human.

            Physique and general appearance.

            The American Heritage® Stedman’s Medical Dictionary
            Copyright © 2002, 2001, 1995 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company.
            __________________________________
            Note that that’s from a MEDICAL dictionary.

          • Highliter

            Except a fetus has all thoes things.

          • 5-min Pro-Lifer

            What makes a human a human?

            Some of the common arguments used to differentiate between a child and a fetus are size, level of development, environment, and degree of dependency. However, taking a closer look at each of these arguments we can see that they are generally not well though out and easily dismissed.

            Size: True, embryos are smaller than newborns and adults, but why is that relevant? Do we really want to say that large people are more human than small ones? Men are generally larger than women, but that doesn’t mean that they deserve more rights. Size doesn’t equal value.

            Level of Development: True, embryos and fetuses are less developed than you and I. But why should this be relevant? Four year-old girls are less developed than 14 year-old ones. Should older children have more rights than their younger siblings? Some people say that self-awareness makes one human. But if that is true, newborns do not qualify as valuable human beings. Six-week old infants lack the immediate capacity for performing human rental functions, as do the reversibly comatose, the sleeping, and those with Alzheimer’s Disease.

            Environment: Where you are has no bearing on who you are. Does your value change when you cross the street or roll over in bed? If not, how can a journey of eight inches down the birth-canal suddenly change the essential nature of the unborn from non-human to human? If the unborn are not already human, merely changing their location can’t make them valuable.

            Degree of Dependency: If viability makes us human, than all those who depend on insulin or kidney mediation are not valuable thus we may kill them. Conjoined twins who share blood type and bodily systems also have no right to life. A newborn baby is just as dependent if not more dependent on the mother yet the mother would be considered a murder if she decided that the child was too much of a burden.

          • Body image vs health??

            Nope again. A mole can literally kill you. Melanoma anyone? I don’t care if that fetus becomes a golden violin, if I don’t want it in my uterus, it has NO RIGHT to be there. A fully grown human being has no right to be there, why would a fetus?

            And, sex isn’t just for reproduction. We are primates. MANY species of primates use sex for social purposes. Research. Knowledge.

            Abortion isn’t a “lifestyle choice”. It’s a choice that will completely alter a person’s life. Where are you even pulling this shit from?

          • sean m

            Look, another Nazi. Making the claim their body is their own and they can kill another human being that “doesn’y belong”. Then maybe you should keep your pants on, loser.

          • Body image vs health??

            Hahahahaha. I literally laughed out loud. Thanks for that. If a person is inside my body without my permission, I DO have the right to kill them. See self defense. Try again. And thanks for the assumption I am promiscuous. Also a good laugh. Good lord. Thanks. I’m a nazi. For thinking that we own our bodies. Have you studies history at all? Because acting like nazis have the right to people to their bodies is like, the opposite of what the nazis did.

          • Herpty Derp Derp

            Well by that logic, I could technically put a gun right smack up against your head and it’s MY RIGHT to pull the trigger. You don’t have the right to tell me no, because it’s MY BODY and I can do what I want. But go ahead, argue “that harms you and is therefore immoral”, argue that I “deserve to be punished.” You’d be right; I WOULD deserve to be punished, just as anyone killing a baby should be held accountable for their actions. Honestly, you’re less human than the “things” you so desire to kill. Tell you what… how’s about you take your argument…. and go pleasure your liberal friends with it ;D I hear they are always in need of more conformative brown-nosers willing to get them off

          • Body image vs health??

            Um… Am I INSIDE your body? Because if I am, then YES. You can shoot me. If you think you can just shoot people because of bodily autonomy, you don’t understand bodily autonomy. Bodily autonomy DOES NOT mean you can do anything WITH your body that you want. It means that you can do what you want TO your body. That no one can USE your actual physical body to do anything. You are NO ONE’S property. If I was inside your body, and you killed me, you would not deserve to be punished. If you killed me and I was not inside your body and not otherwise infringing on your body (i.e. rape or assault) then, yes, you should be punished. The problem is YOU DON’T UNDERSTAND BODILY AUTONOMY. And, NO I’m not “less human than the things I desire to kill.” I am human. They are human. But they are inside another person’s body. And, they are not really people yet. As they are not born. And, as it turns out, that is a pretty big deal. Although you don’t believe it. I don’t desire to kill fetuses. I desire to protect women. You want to protect women and seem to forget that a woman is involved. So, you can just fuck the right off with your woman controlling, fetus loving, people ignoring bullshit.

          • bakakurisu

            WOW…. You’re really foaming at the mouth, aren’t ya?!

            Once again, WE DON’T CARE WHAT YOU DO WITH YOUR OWN BODY! You don’t want a child in your uterus? Don’t put one in there! ;)

            …And we hate women? Wow… You just kinda ran out of bullets and threw the gun there, didn’t ya, Missy?
            ______________________________________________
            check out these notorious woman-hating non-persons:

            Gianna Jessen
            (survived a saline abortion)
            http://giannajessen.com/main/octoberbaby.html

            Melissa Ohden
            (survived a saline abortion)
            http://www.melissaohden.com/

            Carrie Holland-Fischer
            (Survived a saline abortion)
            http://www.theabortionsurvivors.com/public-survivors-their-stories/carrie-holland-fischer/

            Hope Hoffman
            (survived D&C abortion, born with cerebral palsy and adopted)
            http://www.theabortionsurvivors.com/public-survivors-their-stories/hope-hoffman/

            Sarah Smith
            (survived an abortion because she was ‘overlooked’ by the abortionist who killed her twin)
            http://www.theabortionsurvivors.com/public-survivors-their-stories/sarah-smith/

            Claire Culwell
            (survived an abortion because she was ‘overlooked’ by the abortionist who killed her twin)
            http://www.claireculwell.com/

            Heidi Huffman
            (forced to abort her child by family, received botched abortion that threatened her and her child’s life. Both survived)
            http://www.theabortionsurvivors.com/public-survivors-their-stories/heidi-huffman/

            Rebecca Kiessling
            (conceived in rape – her mother wanted to abort her, but was unable to, due to standing restrictions at that place and time)
            http://www.rebeccakiessling.com/index.html
            ________________________________________
            …And take a look at these ‘betrayers of the uterus':

            Abby Johnson
            (former Planned Parenthood director)
            http://www.abbyjohnson.org/

            Norma McCorvey
            (“Jane Roe” of “Roe vs Wade” fame)
            http://www.leaderu.com/norma/

            Carol Everett
            (had three abortions, became abortionist)
            http://www.squidoo.com/Carol-Everett

            ________________________________________
            …And here are the testimonies of a few other former abortion mill workers:

            -Former abortion counselor, Nita Whitten, says, “It’s a lie when they tell you they’re doing it to help women, because they’re not. They’re doing it for the money.”

            -Former abortion counselor, Debra Henry, says, “We were told to find the woman’s weakness and work on it. The women were never given any alternatives. They were told how much trouble it was to have a baby.”

            -Former abortion counselor, Kathy Sparks, says, “The counselor at our clinic could cry with the girls at the drop of a pin. She would find out what was driving them to want to abort that child and she would magnify it.”

            http://www.prolife.com/EVERETT.html
            _________________________________________
            Now calm yourself down.

          • Body image vs health??

            Oh, I wasn’t aware having a vagina made you unable to hate women. And if you read the comment I was responding to, you’d realize it was a thinly veiled threat to shoot me. So… no. I’m not rising to YOUR bait as well.

          • bakakurisu

            Who claimed that having a vagina makes you ‘unable to hate women’? Did you actually READ what I posted? In what way can you justify the claim that these victims of your holocaust hate women? …And the women that used to SUPPORT your holocaust?

            Nobody’s baiting you. It seems the only reason you’re deluded to believe that you have a chance in this debate is because you keep erecting armies of strawmen to fight against.

            Nobody’s trying to steal your vagina. I PROMISE.

          • Rebecca Sims Dale

            Again I ask you. How does the location of the fetus have any bearing on what it actually *is*? How does it’s use of your bodily resources have any bearing on what it actually is? You say it’s not a person because it’s not born. How does birth materially change the fetus? Is does new things, but it is made of the same stuff just before and just after birth. Does the act of breathing make it a person? Does it’s location make it a person? How does that work exactly?

          • Body image vs health??

            Does its location give it the right to use my body without my consent?

          • Herpty Derp Derp

            Wow…. You mad bro???
            And what do you mean “no one can USE your actual physical body to do anything.” Now I could be wrong…but hasn’t drafting been around longer than abortion? Is being drafted somehow considered irrelevant when talking about bodily autonomy? Tell me, how often do you argue against drafting? Not often I wager. No, what seems more likely is that you use this phrase to support your own agenda, and when something that isn’t a big issue in your book comes around, you shrug it off and all of a sudden “bodily autonomy” doesn’t mean as much to you.

          • bakakurisu

            Oh my goodness… You pro-aborts REALLY need to drop the tired “MY BODY, MY CHOICE!” rhetoric.

            I’m gonna let you in on a little secret that will blow you away. You might want to hold onto something….

            WE DON’T CARE WHAT YOU DO WITH YOUR VAGINA!!!

            *gasp*
            Did you catch that? No, you’re not imagining things; if you wanted to wear your uterus as a hat, we wouldn’t stop you! You want to play badminton with your ovaries? Go right ahead! :)

            The point is that having a vagina doesn’t give you a license to kill any more than having a penis gives me a license to rape.

            …And in case you missed it above; here’s a history lesson for you:
            ______________________________________
            “..in the eyes of the law…the slave is not a person.” (Bailey/als. v. Poindexter’s Ex’or, 1858, Virginia Supreme Court)

            “An Indian is not a person within the meaning of the Constitution.” (George Canfield, American Law Review, 1881)

            “The statutory word ‘person’ did not in these circumstances include women.” –British Voting Rights case, 1909

            “The Reichsgericht itself refused to recognize Jews…as ‘persons’ in the legal sense.” (1936 German Supreme Court decision)

            “The word ‘person’ as used in the 14th Amendment, does not include the unborn.” (U.S. Supreme Court decision, 1973)

            _________________________________________
            You see, we call this a “pattern”. Abortion will be just another shameful skidmark on the underwear of human history.

            You can whine, scream, cry, complain, and belch out all the impertinent catch-phrases and bumper-sticker slogans you want – the numbers are increasing in our favor. There’s just nothing you can do to stop it.

          • Body image vs health??

            But it is the pregnant person’s body. Or did you forget her again? And, yes, you really DO seem to care what I do with my vagina. You seem to be mistaken on what the my body, my choice argument is about. See. my uterus that the fetus is living in, is inside my body. The fetus is taking blood, oxygen and nutrients FROM me. It is not getting any of them from the outside world. It is intrinsically attached to me. It literally cannot survive without a physical attachment to my body. That means it is not autonomous. I, however, am. I am autonomous. I can use my body how I see fit, as long as I am not infringing on another’s right to their body. Which is why rape is illegal. Because it is infringing on another’s bodily autonomy. Since a fetus is infringing on that pesky pregnant woman you struggle to deny exists, it has no right to exist in her body. UNLESS she wants it there.

            And, yes. I again fail to see the similarities between laws that deny autonomous people their bodily autonomy and giving a fetus the right to a woman’s body when she doesn’t want it INSIDE her.

          • bakakurisu

            Nobody “forgot” the pregnant woman, Dear. You’re desperately frantic and delusional.

            Again, I have NO desire to confiscate your vagina – I’m just making it illegal for you to kill innocent children.

            …And again, I have to ask you to explain where babies come from. Can I kidnap someone, drag them onto my property. then shoot them for trespassing? …And what if I have a woman in my house, and I drug her into unconsciousness? Does she suddenly become a “non-person”, simply because she’s TEMPORARILY not self-aware or self-governing? Does that mean I can do as I please with the human-like clump of cells that’s slumped over the arm of my couch? After all, it’s MY HOUSE. Do you deny that I exist?

            You fail to see a LOT of things; pregnancy is not an arbitrary affliction, and parents have unique moral, natural, and LEGAL obligations to her own children that she doesn’t have towards anyone else.

            You’re gonna have to do a lot better than these bumper-sticker slogans you keep belching out at me.

          • Kyle Ness

            some call it a parasite. since a parasite feeds off another being without hosts permission. Being a guy, I would remove a parasite pretty fast.

          • bakakurisu

            Yes, ignorant, stupid pro-aborts refer to developing children as parasites.

            SCIENCE, on the other hand, clearly dictates that a developing child is NOT a parasite.

            Hmmm… Who to trust? Embryologists, biologists, and physicians? …Or eugenical maniacs?

            It’s a tough call, really…

          • gpearl

            Without your permission? You created the process with another person to create the baby. What do you mean without your permission? It’s too bad the baby didn’t have a knife and stabbed that penis a couple of times to prevent the semen from seeding you. But the baby had no self defense…see self defense.

          • sean m

            You do not have the right to kill your unborn baby, no matter how many amoral communist douchenozzels tell you you can. Period. Your self defense claim is a straw man argument and is based on willful ignorance and lack of education. Do you have any more copy/paste and unoriginal talking points to post? By devaluing your own child to an invading “clump of cells” makes you no better than the murdering Nazis you emulate. Good luck in life you immoral baby killer.

          • roscojim

            Only sluts feel the way you do.

          • Body image vs health??

            Hahahahahaha. Good argument. Here’s another: only pious self righteous asshats feel the way you do. Oh and misogynists.

          • SaudiAmerican

            No, I am a woman and he is right. Loser.

          • Body image vs health??

            I don’t care if you are a little piglet. You CAN STILL be a misogynist if you have a vagina.

          • bakakurisu

            You’re pathetic.

            Just keep struggling and throwing hissy-fits. The more you hurl petty insults, the more apparent it becomes to us that you not only have no leg to stand on in this debate, but you guys are just desperate and afraid.

            We’ve got you guys against the ropes.

          • Guest

            Oh, GEEZ… Now you’re throwing down the “misogynists” card…

            Say… Raise your hand if your constituency is NOT supporting the brutal slaughter of over 600,000 females ever year!

            *raises hand*

          • bakakurisu

            Oh, GEEZ… Now you’re throwing down the “misogynists” card…

            Say… Raise your hand if your constituency is NOT supporting the brutal slaughter of over 600,000 females ever year!

            *raises hand*

          • SaudiAmerican

            You are an idiot. I really wish I could meet you in person and knock you out with a golden violin. You are one of those types of women that no man in his right mind would put up with longer than the primatial act of pleasure you are referring to. I really pity you. Can you hear the “worlds smallest violin” playing for you right now?

          • Body image vs health??

            bahahahaahaha. That’s rich. Considering that you all completely ignore that real people who are pregnant are suffering and all you care about are fetuses and just call the pregnant people sluts. But, why should anyone be surprised since you all seem only to ever care about fetuses. Poor people deserve to die. Women should pump out babies. We don’t want to pay for birth control or abortion, but you all better pay for wars that you don’t believe in because “they defend our rights.” So, nope. Get over yourself. Don’t pity me. I’m doing fine in my world of rationality.

          • bakakurisu

            Wait a second… You’re claiming that we feel that poor people deserve to die???

            YOU are the one who’s pushing a eugenical agenda, you psycho!

            You’re just pissy that we feel that the right to live is just a BIT more important than your desire to get filled.

            …But your hurt feelings matter very little to us. The fact of the matter is that conceiving a child is elective, being conceived is not. Pregnancy is temporary, and death is permanent.

            You’re fighting a losing battle, here. More and more restrictions are being placed on this little holocaust of yours, more and more abortion mills are being shut down, and more and more people are identifying as “pro-life”.

            You’re on the wrong side of history, Sweet-Cakes. Come to terms with it, or you’re gonna be VERY unhappy during the next few decades.

          • Body image vs health??

            So… are you fighting for universal health care?

            And, holy crap that is extremely insulting. Why oh why do you pro-life folks always feel the need to defame pro-choice people by calling them sluts? Why do you feel the need to say I just want to get laid by everyone and everything. News flash there, I was a virgin longer than ANY of my friends, including ALL the pro-life and extremely religious ones. And, I have been pro-choice since I was about 15 or 16. I was fully pro-choice for YEARS before I had sex. My desire to get filled. Gross. You are just gross. How about all the married people who don’t want kids? Is their “desire to get filled” suddenly ok because they’re married? Thanks for the sex shaming though. It’s really great.

            It’s not a holocaust. But, way to tack it on to the Holocaust to make people feel REALLY guilty. See, abortion isn’t a systematic killing of an entire group of people. It’s allowing a woman to decide when and how she wants to be a mother. It’s allowing a woman to have the absolute human right that is bodily autonomy. I have ZERO doubts that I am on the right side of history. And, someday, people will look back on this age as a strange time in history when women were considered unable to make their own reproductive decisions. Someday people will have moved beyond a point where abortion is only rarely necessary because we will have ready access to affordable and extremely effective birth control for both men and women. (Actually, we are very close to that day, but since the conservatives keep screaming whore at any woman who doesn’t want to have kids and wants to use birth control, they are postponing that. But, you know, go ahead and keep sex shaming, it’s a SUPER healthy and sensitive way to go!)

          • Guest (Didn’t I choose that?)

            All the comments only mention the mother and her connection to the fetus/baby. At what point did the father’s connection become a non-issue?

          • Body image vs health??

            Because he’s NOT connected? He might have an emotional attachment, but so can the mother. She is the only one with an actual physical connection to the fetus. Or is he the one with the fetus in his body?

          • bakakurisu

            Whoa, there… Cool your feminazi jets. No one called you a slut.

            Tell me sweetheart… Where do babies come from? Explain that, and you will see the mistake you just made in that angry little rant.

            …And you pro-aborts REALLY need to stop nit-picking at semantics; at NO point did I bring up THE Holocaust.
            ________________________________________
            hol·o·caust [hol-uh-kawst, hoh-luh-]

            noun

            1. a great or complete devastation or destruction, especially by fire.

            2. a sacrifice completely consumed by fire; burnt offering.

            3. ( usually initial capital letter ) the systematic mass slaughter of European Jews in Nazi concentration camps during World War II (usually preceded by the ).

            4. any mass slaughter or reckless destruction of life.
            __________________________________________
            I’m pretty sure that 1.2 million innocent children being slaughtered every year fits at least two of those definitions.

            Nobody’s “sex-shaming”, and nobody’s contesting “reproductive decisions” – abortion has absolutely nothing to do with reproduction. Once a child is conceived, a woman is ALREADY a mother, and reproduction has already taken place.

            Do you consider rape to be a “reproductive right”, or do you insist upon shaming unattractive, undesirable men by forcing them into celibacy?

            THINK.

          • Brandon P.

            Ok so a mole can kill and you also have the right for self defense, but to the fact that the baby has no rights to being in the place you helped conceive it I oppose.

            1. Sex is an intimate act committed between a man and woman for the purpose of creating children (which it has been known to do in billions of cases and for thousands of years) and the strengthening of the relationship of the man and woman. Social purposes, Research, and Knowledge is what you said sex is for as well (personally it sounds ridiculous):
            What social purpose other than to satisfy a hormonal urge?
            What research, we already know what happens when a man and woman have sex?
            What knowledge other than to further the extent of you knowing more ways to commit sexual acts?

            2. The baby(Fetus for the people who can not associate the term baby to the human being that grows in a female’s womb) created by the intimate act of sex has every right to live and grow in the womb. Are you going to say the baby was not alive the moment he/she was first conceived (yeah the baby may take time to develop all the bodily functions it needs to survive, but that is why it grows in the womb and survives from the mother giving the baby the sustenance that he/she requires) by an act you willingly committed (I am not discussing rape, but the sexual act between consenting adults)? If so then when did it become alive, remember a non-living object can not grow?

            Feel free to hate me it is your opinion.

          • Body image vs health??

            I don’t hate you. That is against all I believe. I eyeroll your opinions though. As, sex is not JUST for reproduction. We are primates. And, primates often use sex as a tool for communication and building relationships. Go ahead, do a little research. It is a widely accepted fact amongst animal behavorists that primates use sex for many reasons, reproduction being only ONE of them. Social purposes. Solidfying relationships. Look up bonobos. If you are actually wondering. They’re closer to us than chimpanzees even. And, they are extremely social. And, they have LOTS of sex.

            The act of sex involves more than just positions. And, involves more than just our species. I am encouraging research into other species and how they use sex to further relationships. This is very similar to how we use sex.

            Why does a fetus have a right to my womb? Does anyone else have the right to my womb? If I was drunk and was driving (not something I do, btw) and I get in a crash and the other driver was injured, do I need to donate my kidney to save them? Even though I caused their injuries? You might say that was the right thing to do, which may be so, but is it legally binding? Is it ALWAYS the case? What if I only have one kidney? Do I need to die for them? What if I have cancer and it will postpone my treatment, and possibly or probably kill me? What if I have a mental illness that 1. caused me to drink excessively and 2. would prevent me from being a proper donor due to the medications I was taking? What if I have children that already depend on me? And, this drunk driving incident is a one time thing? I have never even had a drink before. But I drank once, and didn’t know my limit and now someone might die? Because these are all real parallels to people seeking abortions. Things aren’t as black and white as they appear.

            Contrary to popular belief, the woman who is pregnant is frequently not in perfect health with loads of money and support. Many are poor. Many are very young. Many ALREADY have kids they struggle to feed. Many have health problems (don’t exclude mental health!) that may prevent them from even CARRYING a pregnancy, let alone raising a child. Many CANNOT AFFORD the medical bills that come with a pregnancy. Many are in abusive relationships. (And, in many states, a rapist can sue for child custody, so if she was raped, she would have to share custody with her rapist, who assaulted her.) This isn’t an issue that is simply about the fetus. And, by focusing on the fetus, you are ignoring all the complexities of the situation. Literally NO ONE wants an abotion. NO ONE gets pregnant wanting an abortion. They get pregnant intentionally and see NO OTHER way out than abortion. Being pregnant puts them in a place they deem to be unacceptable. Often even dangerous. Did you know that over half of people who come to clinics that provide abortion to discover their options are in abusive relationships? Did you know that the secondmost common cause of death for pregnant or post partum women is homicide? (After car accidents.) These are facts. And they shouldn’t be ignored because of a fetus.

          • Body image vs health??

            If you really want to know more, I can help you. I can point you to sources. I don’t LIKE abortion. I honestly wish we had like 1-0 abortions a year. And, only to save the mother or to protect the fetus from a very short, very painful life after birth. I honestly wish women were never coerced into pregnancy. I honestly wish women (and men) had access to very very effective birth control that almost never failed. I honestly wish that women who found out they were pregnant felt they could afford to keep a pregnancy. I honestly wish that adoption meant that all babies born found loving homes. (Many age out of the system and live their entire childhood being unwanted and unloved.) I honestly wish that no woman ever felt that abortion was her ONLY option. As the world stands, that is not the case. And, I really just want people to see that the pregnant person really does matter and the fetus is not the only consideration in a pregnancy. Both matter and the pregnant person will always matter more to me. No matter what.

          • bakakurisu

            Aw, isn’t that just heart-warming!

            You’ve been brainwashed to believe that we don’t care about women, haven’t you? Turn off “The View”, Honey. It’s made you stupid.

            I feel sorry for lonely guys who can’t get laid. I wish that every guy could find a nice, pretty lady to hold, to love, and to bed, if he so desires.

            …But that doesn’t mean I support rape.

          • Not A Woman

            I don’t think any “clump of cells” forced their way into anyone. I don’t think that you have the RIGHT to terminate the life of an unborn child for “intruding” in your body, and “sucking life from you”, and for “having no right to be there”….. you put them there. And by doing that, you gave them the right to be there. Fetuses don’t just spontaneously appear, and then develop into things like melanoma. If you give a fully grown male (pun intended) the RIGHT (from what you have said thus far, I doubt it would be a privilege) to enter your body, and it results in you becoming pregnant, YOU chose to put that baby in there. You gave them the RIGHT to be there. Choice starts before you become pregnant. You don’t just miraculously become empowered with the ability to make decisions upon becoming pregnant.

          • Body image vs health??

            Okay, well, I don’t think I ever called a fetus a clump of cells. But, that is accurate as ALL living things are clumps of cells. And, yes. It is INSIDE my body. I don’t care HOW it got there, that means it is, well INSIDE my body. And, well, thanks for the insult that a man has a “right” to my body because it isn’t a “privilege.” You do understand that that means you condone rape, since no one has a right to anyone’s body, right? I assume you actually meant that I am a miserable bed companion. I also don’t understand the insult there since everyone else seems to think I’m a slut. So… whatever. I DID not choose to put a baby in my body if I have sex. Especially if I am using birth control. I think that’s a pretty big sign that I give NO fetus the right to be there, since I am actively trying to prevent it from being there. I did not give them the right to be there anymore than I give another MAN the right to be there. Is it the man I allowed to “enter” me? Then, no, I did not give it the right to be there.

            I also don’t “miraculously” have all my rights to my body taken away upon becoming pregnant.

          • bakakurisu

            So, you have sex for recreation, and not procreation?

            I can’t speak for everyone here, but that’s perfectly fine with me. I personally enjoy it, as well.

            …But what about drinking? What if I drink ten daiquiris just because I like the TASTE of it? Does that mean I can get behind the wheel of a car? After all, I didn’t drink to get drunk – I just enjoy the limey-flavor of daiquiri…

            …And that’s another point that debunks your “bodily autonomy” claim – if it’s illegal to drink and drive because you MIGHT end up killing someone, then why should it be legal to ACTUALLY kill someone deliberately? Drinking is fun, and so is sex… Do laws against drunk-driving inhibit your precious bodily autonomy?

            THINK.

          • gdesigner86

            A mole could never become anything other than a mole. A mole and fetus are not the same thing so there is no need to continue making that comparison. Where do you come up with this stuff?

          • Isabel Kilian

            It is not a person, it is just a woman. She is merely subhuman and you are entitled to sell her, rape her, murder her or rent her out as a sexual slave. She is nothing but your property. Muslim Teaching on women.

          • roscojim

            And I care what a Muslim thinks why?

          • SaudiAmerican

            No you don’t, and no they don’t. In the old testament in the bible it reads fairly similar. No human being has the right to treat any other human being in that manner. No human has the right to take the life of another human.

          • Sireta Neighbors

            “IT” is not an it ….. it is a human being. What other human being do you feel you have the right to kill?

          • roscojim

            Don’t have sex if you can’t live with the consequences. Only sluts have sex without considering the consequences.

          • Body image vs health??

            So… Babies are punishment now? Yes. That’s a healthy approach to parenting. You aren’t ready for a baby? Too bad! Raise this kid and better not screw up!

            And, abortion is dealing with the consequences. You just don’t agree with it. But it is NOT being irresponsible.

          • roscojim

            No, abortion is killing a baby. There’s always adoption. What if your mother would have decided to abort you?

          • Body image vs health??

            First. Adoption is an alternative for PARENTING not PREGNANCY. If you don’t want to be pregnant, adoption will not do anything for you. So… no. And if my mom decided to abort me, I would NEVER have known. It would not have mattered one bit. And, my mom is PRO-CHOICE. She CHOSE to have me. Which means way more to me than simply just being born. My mom WANTED me. My mom was prepared to have me and I had a good upbringing because of it. So, I don’t buy that argument. Which isn’t really an argument. If she had not been ready for a baby, I would have wanted her to have had an abortion and to have had the life she wanted. Not just bring me into the world to be miserable because I was unwanted.

            Also, it’s NOT a baby. Good lord. It’s a fetus. It’s a fetus until it’s born. That is literally it’s stage of development. If you have a problem with the word, get out of the argument.

          • Ed

            You are exactly what is wrong with humanity. Laugh and mock all you want but one day you will stand before God himself and answer for your beliefs and actions. In that moment may you remember this reply and have regret flow through you as you realize you could have changed your way in life while you had the chance.

          • Body image vs health??

            I will proudly stand before God and tell him I cared about suffering women. I will proudly stand before God and tell him I supported parenthood when people were ready to be parents. I will proudly stand before God and say I did not place unborn potential people before actual, real suffering people standing in front of me. I will stand before God and say, I did what was right. I helped people in pain. I did not tell them things like, “You should have thought of that earlier.” “You need to accept the consequences, you slut.” I will have no regrets.

          • cyndi172003

            So then you will proudly stand before God and tell him that you proudly robbed his children (your brothers and sisters) of the chance to get a physical body? Robbed them of the chance to experience things like you and I do, and to learn and grow? You really think that will make Him proud? I beg to differ.

          • Body image vs health??

            Being pregnant is not an inconvenience. But labeling it as such does make it seem like abortion is super heartless. Pregnancy is life altering. Abortion is not punishing the fetus, it’s protecting the woman. I will still stand proudly before God. He knows we are trying to make it through in a world that is difficult. He knows we are making the best of it that we can. If he doesn’t think that, then I will gladly walk myself to hell.

          • bakakurisu

            First of all, I’m agnostic, so I haven’t much to say about what you’d say to God…

            …But BIOLOGY dictates that once a child is conceived, the people who conceived the child are ALREADY parents.

            …And again, there’s no such thing as “potential people”. That’s a term you pro-aborts made up with absolutely no scientific basis whatsoever to justify your holocaust.

            …And AGAIN, you are fighting against strawmen – we’re not pushing the belief that children are punishment – all we’re saying is that a child’s right to live is more important than your desire to have an empty uterus.

          • bakakurisu

            First of all, your admission that abortion is ONLY to end a pregnancy (by killing a child) completely detracts your claim that it’s “for the good of society” rhetoric.

            Secondly, you have shown that you are INCREDIBLY self-righteous, and EXTREMELY bigoted and callous towards “unwanted” children. Would you go to an orphanage or foster home, and explain to the children you see there just how much better you are than they are? Would you explain to them that their lives are not worth living, and that they’d have been better off as bloody clumps at the bottom of a biohazard bag?

            You’re absolutely disgusting.

          • Body image vs health??

            No. I would never do so. But, have you ever talked to children in orphanages or foster homes about how they feel? About how psychologically damaging it is to be unwanted? Have you? Have you ever done research into how many of them age out of the system having NEVER found a loving home? I have had them tell me they wish they’d just been aborted.

          • bakakurisu

            I’ve known SEVERAL people who have come from foster care and adopted homes…

            …And you met a few who wish they were aborted? Then why haven’t they committed suicide? You know, there are “privileged” people who wish they were aborted. What now?

            What you’re proposing it that children need to be killed because they MIGHT have a less-than-perfect life. You have no way to foretell the future. You have no right to assess the value of another human being’s life before they’ve had a chance to truly ‘live’ it.

            By the way here are some people who were ACTUALLY aborted, but survived the attempt by their mothers to kill them. Funny enough, their all pro-life:
            ______________________________________
            Gianna Jessen
            (survived a saline abortion)
            http://giannajessen.com/main/octoberbaby.html

            Melissa Ohden
            (survived a saline abortion)
            http://www.melissaohden.com/

            Carrie Holland-Fischer
            (Survived a saline abortion)
            http://www.theabortionsurvivors.com/public-survivors-their-stories/carrie-holland-fischer/

            Hope Hoffman
            (survived D&C abortion, born with cerebral palsy and adopted)
            http://www.theabortionsurvivors.com/public-survivors-their-stories/hope-hoffman/

            Sarah Smith
            (survived an abortion because she was ‘overlooked’ by the abortionist who killed her twin)
            http://www.theabortionsurvivors.com/public-survivors-their-stories/sarah-smith/

            Claire Culwell
            (survived an abortion because she was ‘overlooked’ by the abortionist who killed her twin)
            http://www.claireculwell.com/

            Heidi Huffman
            (forced to abort her child by family, received botched abortion that threatened her and her child’s life. Both survived)
            http://www.theabortionsurvivors.com/public-survivors-their-stories/heidi-huffman/

            Rebecca Kiessling
            (conceived in rape – her mother wanted to abort her, but was unable to, due to standing restrictions at that place and time)
            http://www.rebeccakiessling.com/index.html

          • roscojim

            When is “born”? Halfway out? One-fourth out? If just a foot is left inside, then I can strangle it and it won’t be murder? If I kill a pregnant woman, I can be charged with two murders. Why us that if s fetus is not a living human being? How can I murder something that isn’t life? I guess a beating heart, moving limbs, and a functioning brain mean nothing to you.

          • Body image vs health??

            Are you really pulling that argument? Ok. When the process of birth starts. The water breaks and contractions start. That’s when I consider a fetus an infant. At that point, the termination of the pregnancy is already happening. But, actually being born is when you are completely outside the mother’s body.

          • bakakurisu

            Killing a child is “responsible” to you???

            Maybe you don’t agree with rape, but it’s really none of your business if someone else wants to rape someone. You don’t like rape? Then don’t rape someone. Just keep your dated notions of “morality” out of my scrotum.

          • Ben

            If memory serves, it has been scientifically proven that babies dream pre-birth. Now I may be wrong, but don’t dreams require some form of thought process, not to mention some level of consciousness?

          • ADixon

            Seriously !!! You are delusional if you think that!!! They have brains and a beating heart, clearly you have never had a child…..and by the way, if she is “responsible enough” TO SPREAD HER LEGS , she has a legal and moral responsibility to her child…..clump of cells my ass, open up a science book and learn about pregnancy before you write something sooo stupid!!

          • Body image vs health??

            Except abortion is taking responsibility. Conveniently ignored fact because it’s not the choice you would make or that you support. And how about we stop slut shaming? Because that’s super sexist. Unless you also slut shame men and tell them and tell them to take responsibility and not get their stds treated.

            As a female comedian said, “I get it. Abortions aren’t for everyone. They’re kind of like kids that way.”

          • bakakurisu

            Men aren’t encouraged to take responsibility????
            Sweetie, have you ever seen a daytime talk-show in your entire life???

            If a man gets a woman pregnant, then subsequently chooses to skip town because he’s not emotionally mature enough, or financially stable enough to raise a child, do you condemn him for abandoning the life that he helped create, or do you support his choice to abandon an unwanted lump of tissue?

            Advocates of life and advocates of abortion alike would condemn him for his callous irresponsibility. However, the law sides with the woman. She could theoretically derail his entire life and his plans by forcing him to pay child support (rightly so).

            …But what if the shoe is on the other foot? What if the father is happy to have helped create a life, but the mother wants an abortion? Who can explain to the father why the life that he helped create deserves to be delivered into a biohazard bag instead of into his loving arms?

            YOU are sexist, My Dear.

          • Body image vs health??

            Aaaaaah. Because the woman caring for the child gives nothing up to care for the child. Only the man has to give up stuff to raise a child. The mother is just sitting there knitting. She’s not feeding it everyday. She’s not making sure it gets to school. She’s not doing anything at all. She’s not using her money to help raise it. You also realize that if a man keeps the child, the woman must pay child support. Parenting is something shared by two people. Pregnancy is not. Men aren’t even forced to pay half the medical bills of the woman they got pregnant. Let alone have half the morning sickness or experience half the pain of childbirth.

            Men do not get pregnant. If they could, then they would also have the right to terminate a pregnancy. It is NOT his body.

          • bakakurisu

            What the hell are you talking about?

            You’re such a rabid, man-hating, foaming-at-the-mouth feminazi that you literally can’t even see straight.

            PAY ATTENTION. Read what I said again; at WHAT point did I say that women don’t do anything during pregnancy? I pointed out that the law FORCES a man to take care of an unwanted child (even if it completely derails his entire life) for up to 21 years, but women aren’t even obligated to allow a child to live for 9 months just because pregnancy is ‘hard’.

            Calm yourself down, and PAY ATTENTION to what people are telling you. I know you’re amped up on emotional pro-abortion juices thanks to your liberal propaganda-factories, but you’re just going to have to come to terms with facts and logic not being on your side.

            By the way, you can hate men without supporting a holocaust.
            Just saying…

          • Mitch

            Science has proven that fetuses can feel and show emotion in the second term of pregnancy. Your argument is completely baseless.

          • SaudiAmerican

            It is a clump of cells just like what is in protected Bald Eagle eggs are only breakfast in the morning. Do birds come out of eggs? Do elephants beget elephants? Can the cells of your tongue produce you another human being? Of course its a clump of cells. If you give it time, the turn into a whole human. Logic 101.

          • parated2k

            The fetus inside a human mother fits every biological scientific definition of individual organism of the species Homo Sapien (Human Being). So, your assertion that it’s just an “irrelevant clump of cells” is not scientific, nor is it rational.

          • bakakurisu

            A human being doesn’t acquire sentience, cognizance, or distinct self-awareness until they are a few months to two years old. Given that infanticide is illegal, we can (and will) illegalize abortion.

            The problem is that you’re imposing arbitrary parameters for personhood. History has shown this to be a HUGE mistake.

            Get over yourselves.

          • Jacob

            This is why i disagree with your argument. If a fetus is just a clump of cells with no life then (if this was possible) if i take a fetus that has been aborted and is just laying in pieces inside of a bag and compare it to a fetus that is healthy within the womb how come the non-aborted baby can slightly move, has somewhat active bodily functions, has a heart beat, and can use its thought process to pull away from something that is inflicting pain upon it while the other one just sits there decaying with no heart beat, brainwaves, or sense of pain? If both are just a clump of cells how come one has characteristics of a living organism while the other is acting just like a dead corpse as it lays still and decays? Both are just clumps of cells right? What distinguishes one from the other so that one is capable of doing theses actions while the other cannot if both are not alive according to you?

          • Body image vs health??

            PREGNANCY IS NOT JUST AN “INCONVENIENCE”. Do some research please. There are LOTS of complications. Especially if the woman is young. And, raising a child is not just an “inconvenience”. An inconvenience is forgetting your homework at home, not a completely life altering event, asshat.

          • SaudiAmerican

            Why is pregnancy completely life altering yet the act that leads to conceiving seems to be so trivial to you? Perhaps you should plan ahead of your coitus sessions and use some of that logic you seem to think you possess.

          • Body image vs health??

            Um… do I really have to explain to you the difference between an act that takes 15 min. and a pregnancy that is 9 months long? That results in an infant that you must raise for at least 18 years? Yes, I consider sex to be “trivial” in the sense that it is a short term activity between two people that lasts a relatively short time. That does NOT mean I consider sex to be meaningless. Sex with someone you love and care about deeply and want to be with for the rest of your life is the best sex I can imagine. It is a way to show your love for one another. No. I don’t think ONE sex act is life changing. That is absolutely ludicrous. I have yet to meet the penis that can tear my vagina open and stretch all the pelvic ligaments out and can actually change the shape of my spine.

          • jerry

            -rape victims
            -people unfit for parenthood
            -the Foster system
            -people unready for parenthood
            -lack of funds, (i know how much you must LOVE paying for other peoples welfare programs because they have too many children)
            -if it IS made illegal to have an abortion, people will still get them, probably a degree less safe and sanitary as well.
            also, do you mean that you should never have protected sex, simply because it too, is not the intended result?

          • cg

            While I could have worded that better (side-effects – they are much more than side effects), I’m not sure what your point is.

          • cg

            Actually, now that I re-read my comments, I didn’t call them “Side-effects”. you did. Again, having to “lie in the bed you made” is a pretty good deterrent to making mistakes. (“lie in the bed you made” is an expression that means taking responsibility for your own actions)

          • Body image vs health??

            Having an abortion IS taking responsibility.

          • SaudiAmerican

            Having an abortion is a cowardly little shitty girls way out.

          • Body image vs health??

            Oh, well, that clears it up. Thanks. Move on. You don’t like it. You aren’t the one who is pregnant when you don’t want to be, are you?

          • Kat

            Or not being able to have children anymore, due to abortion, the increase chances of etopic pregnancies, or maybe dying, either from surgical abortion botches, or drug abortion allergies. Just a few of the side-effects. You’d be surprised at what side-effects there are if you did one year research that takes more then just Planned Parenthood information, such as researches that were being done in England and other European countries.

          • ResignAlready

            The health risks of pregnancy are higher than the risks of abortion. It is more dangerous to make the woman have the child than to abort it.

          • Chanch

            You mean the risks to the woman are greater, not the risks of pregnancy vs risks of abortion. An abortion leaves one life destroyed with a large potential for emotional trauma and a small but not negligible risk for physical trauma in the life of the mother.

            Also, where do you believe the cut-off should be for abortion? The majority of pregnancy concerns as far as the mother’s health go, occur in the late stages of pregnancy when the baby is viable or nearly so. How do you view that?

          • ResignAlready

            No, I mean the chances of there being a complication from pregnancy is much higher than the risks of complication from an abortion. Way more women are injured or die from pregnancy than abortion. A life is not destroyed in abortion, the cells don’t yet count as a human. This comparison is just to show that abortion is safe because many anti-abortion people suggest that it is dangerous. They also believe a woman should be forced through pregnancy and give the baby up for adoption, but this is actually more dangerous than getting an abortion.

            The vast majority of abortions happen during the earlier stages of pregnancy. I think the morality of abortion gets more complicated in late term abortions, but those are very rare anyway and are illegal in a lot of countries, so that’s not really the issue. I am not trying to suggest that the reasons for getting abortion are related to the complications of pregnancy vs abortion. I believe it is more of an issue about a woman not being ready to have a child, and not wanting to go through the difficult process of pregnancy to give the baby up for adoption. It provides an unnecessary burden on the woman which can be solved with a simple medical procedure.

          • cyndi172003

            Whether its early or late term its that same “clump of cells”. Seriously, you need to think about what you’re saying before you say it. You’re making yourself sound really, really ignorant.

          • Body image vs health??

            Why are you SO concerned about a fetus, which is still a potential life that you are totally okay with her dying? For concerns about the health of the mother, it should be until birth. Except that if the fetus has a decent chance of surviving, they will often induce delivery. But I will ALWAYS consider the mother first. Especially considering over half of women who have abortions ready have kids. I’m not depriving children of their mother because a fetus maya me it. That’s horrible.

          • SaudiAmerican

            Bullshit. Billions upon billions of people have been born without a single problem all throughout history. Yet, there seems to be a pretty high rate of abortion tragedies.Use some logic.

          • Body image vs health??

            Abortion is 14 times safer than carrying a pregnancy to term. No. Try again.

          • Rosa Menchen

            BULL PUCKY

          • Body image vs health??

            Did you just bull pucky a fact? Because it’s a fact. 100% fact. Cannot argue with it. It’s like I said the sky is blue. I’d provide a link, but then my response won’t be posted. So, I’m going to say google it. Then avoid sites like life news and look for a legitimate source.

          • SaudiAmerican

            And where did you get those stats? Democrats R Us dot org?

          • Body image vs health??

            Reuters, Time magazine, Obstetrics and Gynecology on PubMed (Obstet Gynecol. 2012 Feb;119(2 Pt 1):215-9. doi: 10.1097/AOG.0b013e31823fe923.)

            Those good enough sources for you? Or do you frown on peer reviewed scientific papers?

          • Body image vs health??

            Those are all lies. My goodness. And, yes. There are side effects for many things. You can die taking Tylenol. I watched a woman die from the dye we used to do a CT scan. And you know what else can cause serious side effects? And is actually riskier than abortion? Pregnancy.

          • Cotton Gin

            How about not having sex or if you must using birth control??

          • Rosa Menchen

            Permanant bodily harm to both infant and mother. Death to an innocent child, risk of infection, infertility, permanant organ damage,

          • Betty Boop

            There is a solution for that buddy. It’s called ADOPTION! Oh and p.s. if you’re in school still raising your hand to go to the bathroom. YOU SHOULDN’T BE HAVING SEX ANYWAY!!

          • SaudiAmerican

            If you have to raise your hand in school you definitely should not be having sex in the first place. Seriously.

          • cyndi172003

            Side effects like becoming baron, not being able to maintain pregnancy later on in life. Sometimes an abortion can affect the uterus in a way that it would not be able to carry a fetus (aka. a baby). I actually know of a chick that had that happen after she had abortions. Her and her husband wants kids, but now her uterus isn’t able to support a fetus.

          • Billy W

            adoption? anyone? Bueler?

          • DeadMessenger

            Don’t give me that. Every kid who is old enough to “do it” knows that “doing it” not only can result in a child, but very often does. This is a good time for the “hand raiser” to learn some important lessons about personal responsibility. And the fact that when we make bad choices, we also very often have to pay a penalty. The baby does not deserve a death sentence for being conceived by a person who makes bad decisions. Result? Baby Mama has to deliver said child and put it up for adoption with a set of parents that actually care. Because it’s the right and moral and decent thing to do.

          • Mark Furgal

            um, you comment, is total fail, 1) because if they are raising hand to go to the rest room, it would most likely be RAPE.. and those older than that, already know about birth control, but were to lazy or cheap to use it.. 2) if they are old enough to do it, and make a choice not to use birth control be it the pill or rubber or both, or any other form.. then they are old enough to have to deal with having the baby.. and then giving it up.. They decied to have sex.. no one else did..

          • malsews

            Then don’t have sex while you’re still a kid. Duh!

          • Stephanie

            If the kid is old enough to be having sex then yes the kid is old enough to face the consequences… there is ALWAYS adoption. My husband and I have adopted our first years ago – best decision ever. Completely adore this child and was very happy that we were able to give him a good home despite “how he came” about. Lots of people are willing to adopt. State laws actually make it quite difficult to adopt…. much harder for people who want a baby than someone who just wants to kill it. Doesn’t make much sense….

          • Denise Rogers

            If you’re old enough to have sex, then maybe you should also stop and think about birth control, Lacey.

          • Nicole Sheets

            If they are too young to raise a child then they are too young to have sex. Also, there is still adoption. What happens if a couple gets in the position that money is really tight and they have a 5 yr old? Do they slaughter him/her because they might be an inconvenience due to their own hardships? NO!

          • jem

            If you don’t want to “risk” the responsibilities that come having sex, then you shouldn’t be having sex.

          • vforba

            The problem has been created by us and a society which has dumbed down the entire population. We feel we have to let “kids be kids”. Well whatever happened to training them to be grown-ups? To take responsibility for their actions. We have allowed society to dictate to us what is right and what is wrong. And that’s why you have 30 somethings still living at home with mom and dad because they can’t take a job that might be beneath them because they made $100,000 worth of debt to go and get that degree that they were told to get. People seem to think you will magically grow up when you hit 18 or 21 but that is not true. Kids have to be taught responsibility and if it takes raising another human being than so be it. Perhaps they will think twice in the future about opening their legs so liberally or being talked into having sex by some worthless bum.

          • Jojo

            If you still have to raise your hand to use the restroom in school, there’s no way you are mentally capable of having sex and if we cared more as parents and really taught our children anything, then hopefully you wouldn’t be having sex at that age.

          • Dani

            How about this… if you’re not old enough to have a kid, maybe you’re also not old enough to engage in the activity which will bring about the need to care for it?

          • ResignAlready

            The fetus is not a human being. It has not yet developed and is an irrelevant clump of cells. A woman has no responsibility to grow the cells into a full human. No one is harmed by aborting the fetus and instead the woman gains by not being forced into something she isn’t ready for that could ruin her life. Her life exists the fetus is not yet a human being. There is no moral issue here.

          • Biology

            So, ResignAlready, what defines a human being? At what point is that “irrelevant clump of cells” worth something? No matter which point in their life stage you choose, there will always be an argument for them being human. Because even at conception the “clump of cells” is alive, and contains the biological information of a human being (i.e. the correct number of chromosomes). A child isn’t less human because they aren’t yet an adult, and a “clump of cells” isn’t less human because they have just begun growing. I would argue that, biologically, you’re human when you are alive (your cells can take in nutrients and divide) and when you have the correct genetic information.

          • ResignAlready

            So what? Biologically a mole has the correct number of chromosomes. Is a mole a human? No. As long as it is not a conscious being then it is not immoral to destroy it. The same goes for people who are clinically brain dead, they have a human genome but their brain is destroyed and there isn’t a conscious person left. Killing them is not immoral because they are no longer a person.

          • Biology

            No, a mole isn’t human, and even though it may have the correct genetic information, it can never mature into an adult human. A fetus (or clump of cells, as you might call it) certainly can, and does, mature into an adult human so long as it isn’t hindered by a natural (ex. miscarriage) or unnatural (ex. abortion) cause.
            So again, I ask, what does it mean to be human? Is it consciousness? At what point are you conscious? When your brain is fully developed? Because that happens in your mid-twenties, and most would consider it immoral to kill a 5-year-old. When you are aware of your surroundings? Because there are arguments to be made for fetuses responding to their environments before birth (attachment to mothers, evading the abortion instruments etc.). At what exact time are you considered a human being worthy of life?

          • ResignAlready

            I would say you are considered worthy of life when you’re conscious. And no a fetus even if it did respond to it’s environment doesn’t mean it’s conscious. A fish responds even more to it’s environment and it’s not conscious. A fish life is irrelevant. We know by the level of complexity of a fetus’ brain that it is not conscious. Therefore there is no moral problem with killing it. A newborn baby would be conscious, an embryo or fetus during the stages when abortions mainly happen are not. This is a scientific fact.

            Whether or not it can mature into a human is irrelevant, it isn’t conscious at that time just like if you kill someone who is brain dead. Euthanasia of a brain dead person is not immoral. Killing a potential human doesn’t matter, otherwise it would be immoral to use condoms because you’re denying the existence of a potential human. Morally all that matters is what exists at that time.

          • Sandman

            Which one of us can say what it means to be worthy of life. Look if you want to debate this morally by all means I love intelligent moral/not moral discussion but if you want to have a legal argument I would have to say the government does not have to the right to say what is and what is not worthy of life I would prefer this stay a scientific/ moral debate, but that’s just my two cents

          • ResignAlready

            Scientifically there is no moral concern with the vast majority of abortions. It is absolutely up to the government to make moral judgements that’s a large purpose of legislation! Ideally government passes laws based on scietiic evidence. And in the case of abortion the benefits of abortion vastly outweigh the costs both at a moral and logistical level. It is absolutely up to the government to legislate here and they make the right decision morally in allowing abortion.

          • Ben

            you seem to be making a big case for a society like the one in ‘1984’ or ‘Brave New World’

          • Blake

            A fish is not conscious? Are you sure you know what that word means.

          • cyndi172003

            A brain dead person, no longer has the physical capability of keeping itself alive, so technically, you wouldn’t be killing it. You can’t kill something that’s already pretty much dead, just being kept alive by machines. Pretty much as soon as those machines are removed the person passes or quickly goes through the process of death.

          • guest

            fetus n. an unborn “HUMAN” offspring after 8 weeks of development. Human n. 1. of people 2. made up of people 3. compassionately kind 4. “IMPERFECT” Psalm 139:13-16; “I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made”… vs. 16; “Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect”….Jeremiah 1:5 “Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee”…..Proverbs 6:16;17 “These six things doth the lord hate:”….vs 17 “and hands that shed INNOCENT blood”…. Leviticus 17:11 “For the life of the flesh is in the blood:”….. Blood=Life! God Himself acknowledges us in the womb! “God gives life and He takes it away! Job 1:20,21 Fetus=unborn human, not a bunch of cells! Definitely INNOCENT!!! God will not bless America in any way, as long as we are allowing the daily slaughter of INNOCENT babies!! People are so concerned about animals, whales and turtle eggs, but unborn HUMAN babies we could care less about!….I don’t get it?? Who is willing to fight for the unborn?…..Just the fact that we are even debating this should terrify us!! “It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the Living God!….Lord help us all

          • Body image vs health??

            BIRTH.

          • Body image vs health??

            What defines a human being? BIRTH.

          • GardenFlora

            The Adoption arguement also has critical flaws though. When surveying young women who have both adopted and at another time aborted, the majority say that the adoption was far more traumatic and that during an adoption, their autonomy was removed as social, governmental, and/or familial forces facilitated the decision, not the pregnant young woman who otherwise would have had an abortion.

            I agree with you that we should definitely hold society to a higher standard, and that birth control methods besides abortion should be primary. But in order to achieve this higher standard then we must also make these birth control methods accessible. I know providing birth control methods and education to teenagers is controversial, but compared to abortion it is the lesser of two evils. Idealistically abstinence would work best, but for decades public health statistics indicate that youngsters have sex regardless of abstinence teachings, so providing this option would help minimize unplanned pregnancies.

          • cg

            I think BC is accessible, and cheap. I don’t think I (via taxes & the Gov.) should have to pay for it.

          • dontromanticizethepast

            There aren’t any negative effects for most of us, that’s why. There are a lot more negative effects of having an unwanted child. Also, birth control fails. Rapes happen.

      • Taylor Clark

        ‘alternatives such as adoption’ yeah great, lets bring more people into the world while the earth can barely sustain the life that is all ready on it, and forget the thousands of other children int he world who have no families and live on the streets. Yes, lets make more people to bring into this world as we try to fix these issues while we are at it.

    • Body image vs health??

      I am truly and deeply sorry for your loss. The only thing I will point out is that you WANTED that pregnancy. That is a totally different situation. And, I am, again, deeply sorry for your loss. I just want you to remember the people who don’t want to be pregnant who would be relieved to no longer be pregnant. And, yes. I stand with you. I wish you the very best. I hope you have the children you so desire. I really do. I hope they are healthy. And, I know they will be cared for in a home that wants them more than anything. And, that is all I want. I want children to be loved. I want them to be wanted more than anything. I cried with the patients who had miscarriages. I sat with a woman on the floor in the bathroom while she cried. The pain felt by anyone after a miscarriage is real and it is severe.

  • Pro-life and Proud

    Well said. This is my one sentence response to the same question which so far no pro-abortion person has a real response to. You can do whatever you want to your own body, but you do not have the right to do what you want to the baby’s body.

    • Michael

      Sorry I think the writer would disagree. You cannot do whatever you want to your own body. If you are a pilot, other people (say your passengers) have a right to expect you not to get drunk mid-flight even if it is your body.

    • localman22

      There are legal limits on what a person can do to his or her own body. Suicide is illegal, and a person who attempts suicide can be arrested. A person can, in some rare circumstances, be forced to have to give a blood, tissue or urine sample. Some medical procedures are illegal, both for the person performing the procedure and the patient. So, body autonomy is not absolute.

      Body autonomy is not an absolute right. The right to life is also not absolute — there are some situations where life is taken or not saved. And there is a legitimate question about when life actually begins — it is more a matter of opinion and philosophy than science.

      However, when balancing the right of body autonomy vs the right to life of the unborn child/potential child, the pregnancy was caused by the woman, and usually the man, too, being irresponsible (except in the case or rape or incest, where the man is solely responsible). When balancing a completely innocent life or potential life vs. a person who was irresponsible, shouldn’t the innocent life prevail?

      • Al

        And usually the man???? Unless she was artificially inseminate they had equal part in it. However, if she was raped she had no say.

      • Jumping Jehosaphat

        And your reply started out so well…..

    • Paul Wagner

      When is it a “baby”? Answer in non “moral” or Biblical terms

  • dslewis01

    One might also point out that a pregnant woman is typically ambulatory; not strapped down to a hospital bed for 9 months;
    and what about the baby’s “bodily autonomy”?

    • A-Train

      had a friend say ‘should it be illegal for someone to cut off their own arm’? as longas they don’t ask me to cover their medical

      • Jumping Jehosaphat

        But, you are ok if you have to pay for welfare when the mother can’t support the child? Just want to make sure you aren’t contradicting yourself.

        • A-Train

          to an extent, sure I am. just not to the extent of them getting thousands of dollars for making a bad decision (tax returns) or buying name band junk foods on EBT, while I’m stuck paying cash from MY PAY to buy store-brand cheap crap. Beans, rices, powdered milk and formula ONLY for people on stamps. watch the rates drop and people become finanially RESPONSIBLE.
          Let people DEAL with THEIR situations, and watch those ‘poor kids’ grow up and realize they don’t want to be in that situation. A kid sees mom making terrible choices, and ‘living comfortably’ there is NO incentive to improve.
          Yes, consequences to actions… what a freakin’ crazy thought.

    • Paul Wagner

      Show me one non “moral”, non medical argument for forced birth.

      • dslewis01

        Paul,
        “Show me one non “moral”, non medical argument for forced birth”:
        Birth is natural, not forced; abortion is force.

        “Show me one non “moral”, non medical argument for forced birth”
        Although I view your term “forced birth” as flawed,
        the “non-moral & non-medical” argument is you, Paul.
        Although we have diametrically opposing to your viewpoints on the subject,
        I am glad you are here and alive & I think we can both at least agree on that.

        • Paul Wagner

          I meant to say non moral, non Biblical, meaning to show me a MEDICAL reason. And it most definitely is forced birth. What else do you call forcing a woman to carry an unwanted pregnancy to term against her will? You are forcing her to do something she does not want to do.

          • Jeffrey Hanson

            why do you need a non-moral reason. Do you need a non-moral reason why stealing is illegal? all of our laws are based on a moral structure.

          • Paul Wagner

            Because the forced birth argument is built around banning a legal medical procedure against a person’s consent. And the procedure is medically ethical and conforms to the oaths doctors take. Primer non nocere–First do no harm. And so far the forced birth side has not come up with scientific or medical arguments that withstand scrutiny or peer review.

          • Ricky

            First I would like to say I love how you just decided to call pro-life arguments “forced birth” arguments. If we are just allowed to call other people’s views what we want and make up or own words for them, I’ll henceforth call your arguments “pro murder”.

            So, as others said, almost all of the legal system is based on moral reasons. Why is murdering someone who pissed you off wrong Paul?

            It is really funny that you bring up the doctors oath to do no harm though. Especially just using those exact words. That is one reason I view the pro murder arguments as flawed. It has been shown time and time that the unborn babies feel pain. They are actually going inside a women and, in a lot of cases, literally tearing a baby apart. And the argument that you are going to use for that being ok is that the Dr’s took an oath to do no harm? Do you hear yourself? The only case in which that specific pro murder argument even begins to make sense is if the mothers life is in danger if she has to carry to term. That changes the argument a little. However, we aren’t talking about that. You weren’t talking about that. You are just trying to imply somehow that by a Dr not doing a procedure he is causing the mother harm. What harm did he cause by not providing an abortion? It’s do no harm, not do whatever the hell the patient wants.

          • Paul Wagner

            Actually, no. the “fetal pain” argument has been debunked time and time again by the medical community. The REPUTABLE medical community. And seriously. Stop buying the BS about “tearing the baby apart”. And if I made you do something you did not want to do, isn’t that forcing you to do something? How would you yourself tell a woman who wanted to terminate her pregnancy she wasn’t allowed to? That’s forcing her to give birth against her will. And as far as “pro-life”, you people are as far from it as possible. I have NEVER heard you people say ANYTHING about what happens to people once they are born. EVER. Nothing about health care until natural death, nothing about making sure people are fed, nothing about shelter, nothing even about education. If you’re “pro-life”, you should be advocating for food, shelter, and health care for a person UNTIL NATURAL DEATH. And it must be GUARANTEED BY GOVERNMENT. “Pro-life” means THE ENTIRE LIFE. You people are “pro-fetus”. As George Carlin said about you people, “If you’re pre-born, you’re OK. If you’re pre-school, you’re f****d”. And one more thing. I have NEVER heard the medical profession call abortion murder. NOR HAS THE LAW. It’s ONLY YOU PEOPLE that do that. But let’s play your game. Let’s say you win and abortion gets banned. WHAT IS THE SENTENCE for the woman who then has an illegal abortion? If abortion is murder, then that woman committed a crime. WHAT SHOULD HER SENTENCE BE?

          • Ricky

            First off, I might have come off harsher then I meant to with the last comment. Had a rough day, got frustrated. The fact is is that both sides, pro life as well as pro choice, use names to represent themselves that make them sound good and that the other side doesn’t necessarily agree with. My point was just that if you want the respect of using the name you prefer, please give us that same respect. I usually try to have conversations rather then just yelling at someone, so I’m sorry if I came off as an ass Paul.

            Second, especially right now with the way information is given out about it, I don’t blame the mothers for having abortions. Yes I believe a fetus is alive, but when someone is told it is not and abortions are ok, I don’t think it is their fault that they go and do that. I don’t think these mothers are maliciously killing their babies. As of right now, there shouldn’t be a punishment for abortions, because it isn’t against the law. The first step would be making it against the law. At that point it would not exactly be an easy thing to do and if they did have an abortion they would be breaking the law and there should be some punishment. I honestly don’t know about how harsh that punishment should be Paul, I’m not a law maker. I think there should be a lot of research, thinking and discussions about that before they made that decision.

            Now, as far as no one in the medical community calling it murder, there are a lot of Drs and embryologists who consider a fetus alive. Here’s a link to some. I could find more, just want to give you an example
            http://www.princeton.edu/~prolife/articles/embryoquotes2.html

            I also completely agree with you about how we need to take care of people for their entire life the best we can. In my experience with people who are pro life I haven’t heard many that wouldn’t agree with that. The only thing I can think of that you would be thinking you haven’t heard “our people” talk about that is because if we are having a discussion/debate about the morality or legality of abortions, then we probably won’t all of the sudden start talking about what to do with them when they are 80 or when they lose their jobs. It is a different subject. And the people you have heard discuss these things may or may not have been pro life, we just don’t all where pins declaring what our stance on abortion is. So you most likely have heard a pro lifer talk about what to do with people throughout their lives, you just weren’t aware of them being pro life.

            About the pain thing. It is widely accepted that the fetus feels pain after 20 weeks.

            http://www.doctorsonfetalpain.com/

            Most states will still allow abortions up to around the 24 mark, and a sometimes later if they run a test and they discover the fetus can’t survive outside the womb. Some states allow abortions well after the 24 mark as well, into the 3rd trimester.

            https://www.guttmacher.org/statecenter/spibs/spib_PLTA.pdf

            And the whole tearing apart thing does happen, but not widely used anymore. I wrote a paper once and had sources that it was common during partial birth abortions but of course those are illegal now. So you are kinda right, they aren’t common, but it does happen. The baby is already “terminated” before that however.

            http://www.operationrescue.org/about-abortion/late-term-abortion/

          • Paul Wagner

            A couple of things. Do more research. “Fetal pain” has been debunked. http://www.salon.com/2013/08/07/fetal_pain_is_a_lie_how_phony_science_took_over_the_abortion_debate/ http://www.nytimes.com/2005/08/24/health/24fetus.html?_r=0 And this is the AMA saying this. Second, the Supreme Court in Casey ruled that viability starts after 24 weeks. If the State is willing to pay for the c-section and the premature birth care after 28 weeks, I have no problem with the law going that route instead of an abortion. The woman should not have to pay for that if she does not want the baby and wants to terminate the pregnancy. How’s THAT for compromise? Third, please do not use “research” from a terrorist organization like Operation Rescue. And yes, I classify them as such because they openly call for the murder of doctors who perform abortions, and have assisted such domestic terrorists as Eric Rudolph and Scott Roeder. Fourth, yes, if you want to make all abortions illegal, you gotta go all the way and specify the sentence for the woman who uses the coat hanger, and make no mistake, they WILL use the coat hanger. The only thing Roe v Wade did was make abortions safe by making them legal. Who knows how many back alley illegal and coat hanger abortions were happening before Roe. More than anyone can probably guess. Fifth, back to the point about going all the way: There WILL be cases where it will either be the life of the fetus or the life of the mother (most likely both). What happens then? Which life takes precedence? The mantra has ALWAYS been “safe, legal, and rare”. Here are some more statistics: Where there is comprehensive sex ed and extensive subsidization of contraception, the abortion rate shrinks. Drastically. http://medschool.wustl.edu/news/patient_care/Contraceptive_Choice http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2014/02/03/thanks_contraception_the_u_s_abortion_rate_hits_an_all_time_low_mostly_because.html

          • Body image vs health??

            IT IS NOT WIDELY ACCEPTED THAT FETUSES FEEL PAIN AFTER 20 WEEKS. NO.

            I LITERALLY HAVE WATCHED POLITICIANS CLAIM TO BE PRO-LIFE AND VOTE TO DENY ABORTION ACCESS THEN THE NEXT DAY VOTE TO DEFUND PROGRAMS LIKE OBAMACARE AND WELFARE. THAT’S THE LEADERS OF YOUR MOVEMENT.

            DON’T YOU DARE PUT UP OPERATION RESCUE CRAP. THEY ARE A TERRORIST ORGANIZATION.

            SIMPLY BEING ALIVE DOES NOT GIVE YOU RIGHTS. BACTERIA ARE ALIVE.

          • RegretsGirl

            You and ResignAlready are sick and sad to perpetuate this pro-abortion/pro-choice argument as a sane, sound, positive and normal thing for women and humanity in general. I was totally ate up as a young woman with that whole mentality. At 16 and 21 I felt it was ‘my personal right’ to have an abortion when faced with the results of bad choices that I had made. I had the privilege to become the mother to a boy 3+ years ago at age 35 as yet another surprise, surprise. Trust me, I wasn’t the mommy type who dreamed of having kids and the whole fairly tale. I exercised ‘my choice’ and knew in my gut that abortion wasn’t going to be in the cards this time around so ‘I let’ nature take its course. It’s not like some maternal instinct kicked in either just because I was pregnant. More so that I was more mature in knowing that I had to take responsibility for my actions in life and getting pregnant was one of them. I wasn’t the kind of female who loved holding babies or liked kids very much in general and really didn’t know what to expect when D-day came. In fact, it wasn’t until about the time my son was about 5 months that I really started connecting with him as a mother. One day I was in the bathroom getting ready to go somewhere and just happened upon a station where a former worker of Planned Parenthood was being interviewed about her experience working there, particularly being called in to assist on an actual abortion procedure. She described what she saw up on the monitor and how the baby was struggling to avoid what was coming at it (I forget if it was the suction piece or something worse). I will never forget that day. My son was 8 months then on the floor playing by me and that was the first day I cried and grieved from my soul for the 2 children that weren’t because of me and my ‘CHOICES’. I had absolutely no right to deny them their existence and potential for my, and let’s get real here, want for convenience because of my lack of responsibility.

            Yes, I was ill-prepared to have / raise children when I got pregnant those 2 times, but d*mned if I was even offered any real counseling or options to take advantage of, or even think over for a minute, at that ‘nice’ little abortion clinic I went to in Queens both times was a complete joke. I kind of saw the ultrasound peak out from my file on my first visit there but no one showed it to me or the screen when it was being done either time. The second time I was ‘too far along’ (getting close to 5 or so months) and had to have, what they called, ‘sticks’ put in to open my cervix up before ‘the procedure’ took place the next day (I’ve come to realize the sanitized language used to distract from what actually goes down…the baby…MY baby…being torn limb from limb, courtesy of me and the wonderful abortion movement). Literally, there were so many girls there for the procedure those times we were kind of herded like cattle into different rooms as the process went along, probably 4 or 5 at a time. Post-procedure the 1st time, I was hustled into the recovery area (again multiple girls) and felt so terrible as I lay on the bed they put me in. I was not allowed to lay there for a spell because room had to be made for another girl. I was directed to sit in some chair and drink hot tea and cookies (the pinnacle of aftercare in abortion clinics, I guess). There I waited my turn to see the lady who would give me some free birth control packets and my follow up appointment. No one was overly caring. Everything was quite perfunctory both times. I have to say, knowing what I know and feel now, that was the sickest and most evil place I could have probably been in.

            No, I am not some born again holy roller who’s suddenly had some religious epiphany (more spiritual than religious these days and I don’t go to church). But I can see how things like abortion become so acceptable when God and religion are forced out of things. Honestly, I don’t think abortion will be banned in my lifetime and the situations of rape and incest become dicey for an all-out ban (but those are still ‘only’ 1% of all elective abortions as I’ve come to find out, no less doubly sad). I do think that the way the pro-abortion set believes so much in sex education, the same allowance should be made in abortion-education and the inclusion of it in some real counseling taking place at the abortion clinic. That will never happen, of course, because they are financially invested in promoting their agenda at the expense of the mental, physical, and emotional well-being of moms and babies by the millions at this point. But why not let a woman make a TRULY fully informed decision by explaining the procedure thoroughly with pictures, maybe show a video even of what goes down instead of all this cloak and dagger & sanitized, unicorns and rainbows political language garbage. Then you can bring in the adoption people and have them give their schpiel and then the welfare agency people to see what benefits are available should the woman end up deciding to keep their baby. Hey, if there are waiting period laws for elective gun purchases in many states, why not a waiting period for elective abortions. A ’15 minute’ (if that) counseling session is NOT counseling. Finding yourself pregnant and making such an important life decision (even if it’s just for yourself because you’re only looking out for #1) should also warrant a some counseling by a real professional. Gee, I wonder why pro-abortionists don’t rally for that, or the open availability of seeking out longterm aftercare in their facilities for ALL women who’ve had an abortion. Or right, they’re too busy performing abortions and kicking young women out of recovery beds to get the next one in.

            I don’t care what any pro-abortionist likes to claim, for a great many women, there ARE longterm ramifications. I know I will never be the same and I have to live with having made the 2 worst decisions I have ever made in my entire life. Every day since I’ve heard that radio show has been a day of regret and sorrow when I look at how happy and boundless my son is. Watching him grow and seeing that potential is unreal. No, not everyone grows up with the right circumstances in their lives (I know I didn’t being born and raised in the South Bronx within a broken family and I am certainly not well-off now), but everyone BORN at least has a chance. I am deeply sorry that I came to realize that entirely too late. My heart breaks for all babies, past, present and future not being given a shot because of abortion. I become enraged now when I hear this ‘clump of cells’ bandied about by so-called progressive intellectuals. The pictures of what my 2 children looked like during the months of life they were at when they were killed, when I facilitated their killings, (sorry, that’s exactly what it was) and they certainly were NOT a clump of cells. So what to do? I can’t go to jail because what I did was legal and I know what I did was wrong (understatement). I live day by day and try not to cry. I do hope one day I get the chance to help a pregnant girl make a better decision than I did and save her from a trip to the abortion clinic.

            Final thought…I came to recognize the significance of potential after reading an interesting thing about Steve Jobs the other day. I didn’t realize he was adopted and he’d made some statement about being glad his birth mom didn’t choose abortion. If he’s not an example of the degree of potential an unborn baby can have, I don’t know what is. I wish pro-abortion liberals who sext and text from their iPhones and iPads would give that some thought…and heart.

            (Excuse any typos or grammar. Was just typing as things came out.)

          • Paul Wagner

            Well, I won’t even try to answer all the propaganda in that little thing. And it was full of propaganda. I’ve seen the same words many times written by many people. I can see you have no problem with forcing a woman to have a child she does not want to have. That said, I’m going to pose the same questions I’ve been posing to others: If you think abortion should be banned and made illegal, what should the sentence be for the woman who gets an illegal abortion? Are you willing to have the State pay for all the costs of birthing those unwanted children and taking care of them? If you call yourself “pro-life”, what is your stance on GUARANTEEING food, shelter, and health care for EVERYONE until NATURAL DEATH? That is, making sure EVERY. SINGLE. PERSON. has food, shelter, and health care all the way until natural death. And that’s not to mention education. If you’re pro-life, tell us your thoughts on THAT, because being pro-life doesn’t stop once a child has been born. As George Carlin said about the “pro-life” crowd: “If you’re pre-born, you’re OK. If you’re pre-school, you’re f****d”. And nothing I have seen from you people has convinced me otherwise. It’s like once a child is born, you don’t care about it any more. Same for the woman, especially for the woman. To you, the woman is simply a brood mare, forced to continually pop out babies at the whim of any man. That’s why you are against contraception. It takes away the control and gives it back to the woman. If you were truly “pro-life”, you would also espouse free contraception and comprehensive sex ed, because it REDUCES unwanted pregnancies and abortions.

          • cg

            Wow – Thank you for speaking up. I can’t imagine it’s easy for you. This is exactly what I have been trying to tell liberals and conservatives alike. Keep up the good work.

          • Medical Office Manager

            Paul, yes, they tear babies apart in the womb. The doctor I work for has held them in his hand. If you’d like proof, go to Ray Comfort’s website for the 180movie.com. Ray’s daughter was able to visit a clinic and obtain photos of all the baby pieces you claim are bunk. Yes, babies are dismembered, and many of them grabbed the instruments attacking them grimacing in pain. I work in a clinic. The medical community protects their own, but some of us cannot keep quiet. Shut if you don’t know the truth.

          • Body image vs health??

            NO. GRABBING THINGS IS A REFLEX. HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE FETUS FEELING PAIN. THAT CUTE THING BABIES DO WHEN YOU PUT YOUR FINGER IN THEIR PALM? A REFLEX ARC. NOT AT ALL VOLUNTARY. THEY AREN’T HOLDING ONTO YOUR FINGER BY CHOICE.

          • Body image vs health??

            “UNBORN BABIES” ARE FETUSES AND DON’T FEEL PAIN UNTIL ABOUT 28 WEEKS.

            PRO-CHOICE PEOPLE AREN’T PRO-MURDER. THEY AREN’T EVEN PRO-ABORTION. THEY ARE PRO-LETTING THE WOMAN DECIDE WHAT SHE WANTS TO FUCKING DO.

            WHEN YOU HAVE SURGERY, THEY ARE LITERALLY CUTTING YOU INTO PIECES. WHEN YOU EAT A HAMBURGER YOU ARE GRINDING FLESH BETWEEN YOUR TEETH. JUST BECAUSE SOMETHING SOUNDS UNPLEASANT DOESN’T MEAN IT IS UNETHICAL.

            PROTECTING A WOMAN’S MENTAL HEALTH IS BENEFICIAL. ABORTION DOESN’T FALL UNDER THE “DO NO HARM” PART OF THE OATH. IT FALLS UNDER “BENEFICIENCE”. LEARN ABOUT MEDICAL ETHICS FOLKS.

      • Smoky Blokey

        If in the USA, you are denying Life, Liberty & the Pursuit of Happiness to the life in the womb, who to me is a legal citizen of America!!! Is that non-medical & non-moral enough for you???

        • ResignAlready

          The fetus is not a human being yet and has no legal rights. So what you’re saying is a very weak argument.

          • AgentProvocateur

            You are correct. The fetus from the point of conception until the time of birth is medically described as a parasite. I would like to commend all the anti-abortionists for not using the term pro-life that I’ve seen. As your position is not pro-life, but simply pro-birth in most cases. This is merely because most conservatives are against welfare… You want a child to be born, but couldn’t care less if he or she will be supported properly, not to say the parent(s) wouldn’t be trying, since most do.

          • dslewis01

            fe·tus noun ˈfē-təs

            : a human being or animal in the later stages of development before it is born

          • ResignAlready

            Technically a fetus comes after the embryo, so anything after 8 weeks to birth. So many abortions do happen during the fetal stage but many happen before as well. Almost none happen during later stages. During the period we are discussing a fetus is genetically a human but they have no consciousness, no emotions or perceptions, they are less of a person than a gold fish is. They are not sapient, they are not a human “being”.

          • sean m

            It’s 100% human. Do a DNA test genius. Are you using the same argument Hitler used to classify Jews as non-human? Nazi.

        • Sandman

          That was in the Declaration of Independence which was a declaration of War and not a binding law

        • Body image vs health??

          WE DON’T HAVE A RIGHT TO LIFE. IF WE DID, NO ONE WOULD STARVE TO DEATH OR BE DENIED HEALTH CARE.

          • Blake

            No one starves to death is the US, look it up…CDC has reported not one case of someone starving to death in the US in 10 years (other than some anorexic’s who did it to themselves). Starving to death in the US is a complete myth.

          • Body image vs health??

            Okay, whatever, people die from lack of access to healthcare. And people go hungry. Does the fact that they didn’t die from starvation make their hunger any less painful? Does it relieve your responsibility to alleviate that suffering? I literally do not care about your statistics that people don’t die when people in the US die everyday from easily fixable things that people do NOT prioritize. So, NO the right to life does not exist here.

    • ResignAlready

      With most abortions there is no baby just a fetus. This fetus has no autonomy, it is not a human being it has as much autonomy as a mole.

      • Blake

        most? So you are for limits on how many weeks a woman can wait right? I agree with you on that one.

    • Body image vs health??

      IT’S NOT AUTONOMOUS IF IT CAN’T LIVE ON IT’S OWN. THAT’S LITERALLY THE DEFINITION OF AUTONOMOUS.

  • Will

    This is a ridiculous counter-argument, and although I don’t believe that Rachel presented the argument as well as it could have been presented, the response by Matt was absolutely full of flawed logic.

    • Jacob

      Completely disagree. Flawed logic is the selfish idea of bodily autonomy.

      • Paul Wagner

        Good. Then I can decide what I can do with YOUR body. And I have LOTS of ideas.

    • Jarrod Bennett

      Like what?

      • Will

        I’ll go by each point Matt made
        1. It’s understandable that someone would be obliged to help their child, but a fetus isn’t a child, at least not at the point in development at which they’re aborted. It would be like comparing your relationship with a pet goldfish to that of a beloved cat or dog.
        2. Unintended pregnancies come about through consensual sex, but for the most part, this point was fine.
        3. As with what I had to say about point 1, a fetus isn’t nearly as sophisticated as a child, and while it would be understandable to pay for an operation for your dog, you wouldn’t do the same for your goldfish.
        4. The term “intruder” is highly subjective, and is based on the view of the person who is being intruded on. We don’t behave as nature dictates, and if we did, society would fall into chaos. The fact that something is “natural” is ultimately meaningless in this instance.
        5. Killing the fetus, once removed is just a more humane means to the same end of killing it. When a person is unplugged from medical equipment, they have some chance (however slim) of miraculous recovery or a continued existence of some form. A fetus doesn’t, leaving no reason to avoid any potential unnecessary pain.
        6. If she doesn’t intend to get an abortion, then that would lead any person to expect that she’s going to have that child. Under that assumption, she is going to give birth to an independent being that will suffer from her decisions. If she doesn’t intend to abort, she’s causing harm to a baby that will be born. If a woman does abort, she’s not going to cause harm to a sophisticated, independent being.
        7. If there’s a reasonable likelihood of a baby surviving outside of the womb, then it’s immoral to kill it because of its level of development and potential independence. That late in the pregnancy, it’s immoral and unjustifiable to abort a baby because it may have an ability to survive without being dependent on the the mother, it’s no longer just a part of her.
        8. One has a rights when it comes to their physical body, not the use of their mind to apply their body. To help your children is the mental application of your body to fill out a responsibility, while allowing a fetus to feed off of you is a mindless exercise.
        9. It’s immoral because of the impact it has on other sentient beings. If it impacts an independent, intelligent creature negatively, then it’s easy to see why someone wouldn’t have the right to do it. When someone removes a fetus, they’re not hurting something that does or can have a relationship with anyone, or any of its own feelings, merely a part of the body it’s coming from.
        10. This argument only bears weight if you believe that you *are* your body, which isn’t a solid logical basis for the argument as it’s simply the author’s opinion. Anyone could agree or disagree and be correct. It’s like saying “Music is the superior art form” and then basing your argument that all musicians are brilliant. It’s an argument built on shaky ground.

        • Xian_Do

          Interesting.
          Does anybody else notice that the foundation for Will’s entire counter-argument is based upon the insistence that we must have the same regard for a “fetus” that he possesses?

          (i.e. – a sub-human entity undeserving of equal status to other living human beings)

          Which is for all intents & purposes the same regard that the Democrat Party had for blacks during the slave trade…
          …The National Socialist German Workers Party had for the Jews…
          …and the Westborough Baptist Church has for homosexuals.

          Very telling indeed.

          (P.S. – Yeah, yeah…”Godwin’s Law”…that’s right, I went there!)

          • Unapologetic

            As someone of Jewish decent, you’re disgusting to think that the desolation of my people is in any way comparable to abortion. As you stated, we do not have the same regard for a fetus. Also, the Democratic Party as we know it today did not exist until fairly recently in our nation’s history, so that is a totally invalid argument. They had common names, but not much else. Fetuses do not meet any criteria or ethnic or racial groups so this entire argument is irrelevant. How about some science instead of questionable historical references, yeah?

          • Pattie

            As a non-Jewish person, I highly respect the Hebrew people. I am confused about your disgust. Abortion has killed 55 million babies. Both the holocaust and abortion are/were evil in the killing innocent people. Maybe you agree with Xian and do not value the unborn. As far as race, we are all part of the Human Race. Does it really matter whether the race is black, white, or Jewish ?

        • DavetheInsomniac

          I don’t have time to utterly destroy you, so I’ll do it in an abridged fashion:
          1.) A fetus is NOT any other life form besides a human one. It scientifically is classified as homo sapien. As it is alive, and it is human, your entire argument for point #1 is worthless.
          2.) Yes, because sex is itself a “risky business.” Like riding a motorcycle, you can still have an “accident” even if you take all the precautions one might expect or require. That is YOUR choice for “riding the motorcycle”… you CHOSE to engage in an activity that carries inherent risks.
          3.) Sophistication does NOT have any bearing on the veracity or value of a human life. All life, regardless of its “sophistication,” is entitled to the fundamental rights guaranteed us through the Constitution.
          4.) Not true. Our very rights as outlined in the Bill of Rights, the Constitution, and the Declaration of Independence are predicated on what are referred to as “natural freedoms” and “natural law.” In fact, the very argument for our rights is based on “our Creator” referring to our natural rights, rather than a religious being. Ergo… natural behavior is ALWAYS a factor.
          5.) “Killing a fetus” is the same as “killing a young human being.” Thanks for shooting yourself in the foot.
          6.) There is no “assumption” needed. If the baby is NOT a baby unless she decides that she is going to keep it, then you postulate that life itself is predicated on one’s personal view. This is ridiculous, and is an indescribably-horrific possibility; if life is a matter of perspective, then I suppose ANY argument for killing could be considered in a given circumstance. Life is absolute and scientific… it is not prey to the whims of a particular observer on any given day.
          7.) The line you draw has no basis in science, only conjecture. There is no way to know at what point EXACTLY that a fetus is viable outside of the womb… some children born at 24 weeks survive, while others born at 26 do not. To make a declaration of what is moral and immoral based on an unconfirmed assumption is reckless and stupid, and flies in the face of all scientific conceptions.

          • d’arcy

            You didn’t so much as “utterly destroy” him as you did regurgitate meaningless information. The Declaration of Independence doesn’t actually outline us any rights, btw.

        • jason

          An intruder would be an uninvited individual. Given the causation of more than tens of thousands of years of human sexual history one cannot deny the consequence, nay natural purpose of sex is reproduction. Therefore in a very real sense in almost all cases the woman has quite literally invited in sperm and hence created a human fetus. So based on consensual sex,the understanding of sexual function, and Websters definition of an intruder; your response on this point is far less than compelling. On a separate note a fetus very much like a born child, infact it is far more like a child than a goldfish is like a dog. See chromosomal mapping for a reference. For the record I have never flushed, poisoned, or dismembered any of my pet fish because I simply did not want them many more or caused me hardship. I found these things to be morally objectionable

          • Jumping Jehosaphat

            FYI- in early stages of development, the fetus has gill slits (all vertebrates show these same gill slits) and a tail. So take from that what you will :)

        • machtyn

          We may have to agree to disagree. But I give you props for coming back and sharing your rebuttal.
          1. You state a fetus is not a child. Of course not, but it IS a living, growing, thinking being. It has feelings, a gender, a heart beat, multi-cells, and form. If we found such a complex organism on any other planet, we would call it “life” and celebrate the discovery of extra-terrestrial life.

          As it is, an abortion is the active killing of a sentient being by utilizing drugs, breaking its neck and ripping its limbs apart, or any of the other grisly methods.

          If a person is pregnant and they do not want the child, adoption is the best answer. It is really the only moral answer.

          • Lacey

            Fetuses do not have feelings or thoughts, and is hardly considered sentient. But if you have scientific, UNBIASED sources telling me otherwise I would love to read them over. Also, adoption is not a good answer. If you have a white, healthy baby, then yes, it’s a possibility. But not many people are in the market for minorities and babies with disabilities or birth defects. Is it really moral of us to let thousands of unwanted children go through the emotionally damaging, unstable system of foster care and orphanages? There is not enough demand to meet the supply.

        • Jeffrey Hanson

          will, not sure if you realize it but abortions are legal at 7 or 8 months gestation. So with current laws fetuses are being killed when viable outside the womb. I am surprised he did not use the argument that many states will charge a murderer of a pregnant woman with two counts of murder. however it is not considered murder if a doctor performs an abortion.

        • Jarrod Bennett

          1. So you don’t believe a pet goldfish could be loved as much as a cat or a dog? And you don’t believe a person’s bond with an unborn child can be just as strong as that with a child that is born? That seems like a pretty shallow stereotype to me. As Dr. Suess once said, a person’s a person, no matter how small.

          3. Building further on my previous statement. Life or humanity has nothing to do with sophistication. It doesn’t have anything to do with how many fingers you have, how big you are, who you depend on, or where you live. We should define the criteria for when a person is a life the same way we do when a person is dead. Legally and medically, this deals with heart and brain activity, both of which start between 1 and 2 months into the pregnancy. (And trust me. A majority of abortions do not meet that deadline.)

          4. How is it meaningless. Humans are a part of nature the same as any other animal. Like humans, animals alter their natural habitat to suit their needs. Like humans, animals take care of their own. Like humans, animals use whatever their natural advantage is, whether it’s strength, speed, or in our case, intellect, to survive in the world. But because our intelligence and genetic ability far exceeds every other animal, we’ve been able to alter our habitat, take care of our own, and survive better than any other species–so much better that we’ve been able to establish civilization. It’s still a matter of nature. We’re simply the most adaptable to nature.

          As for the subjectiveness of “intruders,” I believe that natural order pretty much takes care of that argument.

          5. You should look more closely as certain cases of abortion, such as the Gosnell house of horrors. Several fetuses there slipped out of the womb after the doctor was unsuccessful in sucking their brains out. They survived the process, and were then killed afterward. Many other babies are simply left to die on a cold metal table, rather than cared for after normally being born.

          Also, you should look at some of the methods of abortion, and what exactly they entail. Trust me. They are anything but humane.

          6. Again, sophistication and independence have nothing to do with personhood. Trust me. If it’s moving, has a heartbeat, and has brain activity, it’s alive. And if you take a DNA test of that aborted fetus, it’ll show that it was human too. It’s easy to imagine that you’re not bringing harm to anyone when you dehumanize the victim. But regardless of how small or how dependent it is, it’s still a living human.

          7. Again, dependence has nothing to do with personhood.

          8. “Allowing a child to feed off you is a mindless exercise?” Wow. Try telling that to a pregnant woman and see how pissed off she gets.

          9. The problem is, it’s NOT just a part of the mother’s body. A person’s body never has 2 different blood types, 2 brains, 2 heartbeats, 2 different types of DNA, 4 kidneys, etc. If that WAS the case, the person would die. It is one person who IS dependent on the other person, but still has its own thoughts, feelings, and identity.

          10. Shaky ground or not, his claim that “I am my body” isn’t the point. The point is that everything we do, however “mindless” you claim it to be, involves our bodies. And this oversimplification of bodily autonomy presents a claim that you can do whatever you want with your body, even if it comes at the forced expense of someone else.

          Abortion is just such a case. In abortion, you are ridding your body of something you don’t want, in the name of bodily autonomy, but it comes at the forced expense of someone else’s life.

    • A-Train

      yet, in three lines, you failed to address why or how.

    • Jumping Jehosaphat

      I wonder if this is hyperbole on what “Rachael” actually said as well…

  • A-Train

    this is one of the best counters EVER. thanks.

  • colette

    Im a female and have no interest in being a mother. What happens to people like me? Am i a forgotten deomgraphic because i dont want the responsibility of a child? Am i a terrible person i dont ever want to be pregnant or go through chid birth? Its my body. If im a killer in gods eyes, thats fine with me. I know whays involved with making that comittment. Its FOREVER and im not into making clones of myself. Separate church and state kiddos. Xoxo

    • J Gray

      It’s very easy…you act like a grown up and get sterilized or have your tubes tied. Or one of the other many methods of long term birth control. Then you can sex it up to your hearts content.

      • Matt McKee

        Thank you, I don’t know why it’s so hard for them to be grown ups, and take responsibility for their actions.

        • NotALiberal

          They have no need to be adults when the government can just provide subsidies you silly

          • Jumping Jehosaphat

            Yeah, who cares when the government is paying for the welfare and food stamps those kids are living on, and the adults who can’t learn to put a cap on it? High-five!

        • Paul Wagner

          Ya ever hear of changing one’s mind? This ain’t Gilead, and you sure ain’t in The Handmaid’s Tale, no matter how much you want that fantasy fulfilled. Forced birth is evil.

          • Kurt Hess

            Hardly more evil than murder for convenience’ sake. Sometimes life consists of choosing the least bad option.

          • choose life

            That’s just it, ever hear of changing one’s mind? What if this woman or girl, finds herself pregnant not wanting to be, not knowing what in the world to do with this situation, then by the time she is 9 months pregnant or the child is 9 months old she has changed her mind and finds herself loving this child. The so called medical experts trained to ‘help’ her think, do not give her the time or room to think and possibly change her mind. See once a person is dead you can not bring them back. Once you have literally murdered a person you can change your mind yet you can not change the situation. Is it then right for a mother or father to give birth, begin to raise a child then, oh say, 5 years later change their mind about keeping this child, take the garden sheers and cut this person to pieces? Murder is murder, it does not matter the size of the person or the reason for the murder. Did you, Paul, apologize to your mother for forcing birth upon her? Good thing she allowed your birth because I am positive you have much to offer.

          • Paul Wagner

            Oh. My. God. Where to start. First, your example is a bad one for several reasons. One: You do know that past the second trimester, under current law, abortion is illegal, right? Even in Roe v Wade, the Court set viability. So instead of the abortion, it’s a c-section. Two: Once a woman has made up her mind, she’s not changing it. I don’t know what you’ve been fed, but this is not a casual decision, and it is usually made before the third trimester. Next, again, I don’t know what you’ve been fed, but there are NO “medical experts trained to help her think”. Seriously. Stop confusing the propaganda and lie mills known as “crisis pregnancy centers” with actual medical professionals. You say “murder is murder”. Let’s play your game. What sentence, therefore, should a woman get then for having an abortion? Come on, you’re so adamant that abortion is murder, tell us all what criminal sentence should the woman get?

      • Jami

        I’m just curious… in cases where contraception is used but fails, is this also the mother’s fault and she should be made to pay for a mistake that she didn’t even make? There are huge potential consequences for carrying a baby to term, including possibly loss of life. So because the pill didn’t work on her, or the condom broke, she is to blame for this? I actually personally would never do it myself, but I just think that everyone’s situation is different so it’s hard to lump every woman into one category.

        • Jumping Jehosaphat

          Pretty sure a lot of folks on here would claim it was an act of god that it failed. Act of god she died in child birth!

        • .

          There are also huge potential consequences for having an abortion, including risk for future miscarriages, and death.

        • cg

          It’s not about blame. Quite frankly, we should be talking about the man’s role and demanding more of them in these situations. Likewise, I think they should have more of a say as well (and I’m female) HOWEVER, I think everyone knows, when they decide to have sex, what the possible outcomes are, including the failure of BC. People should either 1. Be prepared to take responsibility, or 2. Carry the baby and put it up for adoption. Seriously the risk of dying in child birth is pretty low these days. If you’re that selfish….

      • Smoky Blokey

        BINGO!!!!!! BRAVO!!!

    • Uncle Chicken

      I’m totally fine with no more clones of you. In fact, I sort of prefer it.

      Just don’t reproduce and then kill them.

    • chicagoguy

      U have more and better options than abortion…..condoms, the pill, tie ur tubes, or u could be abstinant…if u don’t want to be pregnant u should be doing at least one of those things if not multiple…and since being abstinant is probably too much to ask of u, I’m going to warn you of one of the side-effects of pointing your toes towards jesus, its called a baby…..once you conceive a life whether u like it or not you jave a natural and moral obligation to provide for that life

      • Sydnie

        Natural and moral obligation? Whose morals? Yours? And what if someone doesn’t subscribe to the same morals you do? And as for the “natural” part, many animals (including bison, rabbits, cows, pigs, rats, chickens, dogs, bears, monkeys, horses, and many more) self-abort in event of a high-stress environment, food scarcity, infectious disease, or if they are pregnant with the offspring of a non-dominant male. Also, it is not uncommon for birth control to fail. It is a small chance, but it does happen. So what then? Is it still the woman’s fault, even if she did everything correctly? Educate yourself before demonizing others, because that doesn’t seem very “moral” of you.

        • Lauren

          Morals are a part of any society and are not exclusive to religion. It is a perfectly reasonable thing for someone to question the morality of abortion, as it is to question the morality of the death penalty.Questioning someone’s morality isn’t demonizing them. If you can’t handle someone questioning your actions that is your issue not the questioners. Educate yourself you say, I say how? On what? You can’t compare what we do consciously to what happens to animals unconsciously. The natural this person refers to is the natural inclination we have as humans to look at things from a conscious stand point. Nature has given us the ability to wrestle with a higher plane of thinking and questioning the morality of the actions of humanity as a whole.

    • DavetheInsomniac

      Then don’t reproduce. But once you’re pregnant, you’ve ALREADY reproduced. You’re just killing your child.

    • machtyn

      Adoption. There are THOUSANDS of potential parents that for whatever reason cannot have children themselves. If you cannot handle being a parent, yet find yourself with child, adoption is the best choice out there.

      And you say that if God judges you a murderer, you are fine with that? I don’t know your situation, but it sounds like you’ve not had a proper mortal father to look up to. God loves you and He wants you to return to him after your mortal existence is finished. Try not to be so short sighted.

      • Sydnie

        I do not believe in god, so your religion should not affect me or my decisions at all, even if it guides the way you live. And there are parents who want WHITE, healthy babies. What about all of the unwanted minority children, or ones with special needs or birth defects? Adoption is not the be-all-end-all answer you so badly want to believe it is.

        • Foof

          Whether or not your believe in God is irrelevant. Unborn babies have a brain and a heart beat at around 5 weeks. By the time most women abort their babies, the baby has arms, legs, fingers, toes, eyes and actually move their body parts. They wiggle, they move – they are alive! The baby has it’s own body. It’s not the woman’s body, but is its own body. Why can anyone argue for killing, terminating, cutting in half, crushing, that small baby that is alive? I will never understand. Women need to get educated and really know what’s going on inside them. But I think ignorance must be bliss when it comes to abortion. Also, when it comes to adoption, it is simply not true that minority children are unwanted. If you cannot have a child and want one so badly, you will take any child. 2 of my best friends are white and they have both Hispanic and African American children. Color doesn’t matter to them at all.

          • ResignAlready

            Their brains and arms at those points are extremely rudimentary. They aren’t conscious, they have no thoughts or feelings. They are less of a person than a goldfish is. Your argument does not hold up.

        • cg

          Jeez – I’m white and I know at least 3 families who have adopted Asian and black children. Your racist thoughts are outdated. If you understood how difficult it actually is to adopt, and what those hopeful parents have already been through by the time they decide to adopt , you would know that almost all the candidates really could care less, at that point, what color the baby is. You’re willing to abort because a baby MIGHT have birth defects??? REALLY? YOU could get CANCER tomorrow. That doesn’t mean you’re going to go jump off a bridge today. (and please don’t)

          • cg

            Did you know that in some states it’s illegal to abort Puppies? because it’s INHUMANE.

          • Problem#99

            Good argument – if you know you consider a woman to be a pet and its owner took her to get an abortion. Attempted correlation between non sentient animals and humans is not really a ‘smart’ plan.

          • Problem#99

            When did cancer become a birth defect? I am aware that certain genes are more prone to cancer later in life and even if you as a new parent were able to pick every genome of your new offspring to help mitigate, outside influences play a heavy roll on cancer – cigarettes to name 1 – so I fail to see how you parallel cancer with birth defect.

          • cg

            I’m not, you’re completely missing the point.

          • Problem#99

            No I didn’t miss your point. Your point was just stupid. Aborting a child due to birth defects is worlds away as compared to someone being diagnosed with cancer tomorrow and subsequently committing suicide. The analogy you chose to use makes ZERO sense.

        • Blake

          People fly to other countries to adopt minority children all the time, many of those have developmental issues or disabilities. They would adopt the same in the US if it were actually possible. The State would rather return a child to it’s drug addled mother than let a family who wants the child raise it in a fitting home. Many court cases have shown this illogical stance by the State.

      • Paul Wagner

        Why do you want to force her to give birth against her will? And if there are thousands of potential parents, why don’t they adopt the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of children already in the system?

        • Jumping Jehosaphat

          Exactly. This is why I think a strong argument would entail a high adoption rates versus a low left in foster care forever rate statistics. Much better to back your options with facts, but oh well. Wish someone would do some actual research into the consequence of forcing all inpregnanted women to give birth and what would happen to those kids

        • Foof

          Adoption is insanely expensive. Also, most babies and children in the foster system are there because their bio parents want them still but are unhealthy (usually drugs) and can’t take care of them. It is actually very difficult to adopt in most cases. Parents all over would gladly adopt these children if they could. It isn’t as easy at you think.

          • Problem#99

            Completely agreed that adoption is insanely expensive and requires an insane amount of paperwork and interviewing process (obviously not required to have your own baby). The fact that you need lawyers to get through an adoption makes the cost that much higher. Adoption in essence eases the burden of the state’s level of support payments to those (generally speaking) orphaned children. Really the court should be paying you to adopt, not the other way around!

        • cg

          This is exactly why I think fixing the adoption process, and promoting it as an option, instead of the head of Planned Parenthood tweeting a pic of herself with a sign that says “what women want” is a great idea that conservative politicians have grossly overlooked.

        • Becca

          Yes adoption is extremely expensive. It is a flawed system. We currently live in a society and with a government where adoption is discouraged. It is made so difficult that most people are deterred and many who wish to try and fail. There are millions (I’m not a stats expert) of kids in the foster care system, which is also a flawed system. There is so much red tape surrounding these institutions that most people want to stay as far away from them as possible. Abortion on the other hand is not only legal, but it is uplifted, made extra-easy. Anyone can walk into an abortion clinic and not have to deal with near enough red tape as to wait to carry the child to term and give it up for adoption. That is so backwards to me. Twelve states require no parental consent whatsoever for a young girl to get an abortion. That means if she has a fully functioning reproductive system at the age of 12, 11 or even ten, she can just waltz right into a clinic without mom or dad knowing. In most states at least one parent or two need at least 48 of knowledge, but a judge or a doctor can excuse this. Many states only require this for girls above the age of 16. Our brains are not fully developed until the age of 25. Yet it’s legal for a 17 year-old-girl to making a decision, WITH medical professionals standing by, that will permanently alter her life, her BODY, if you’re one of those buying into bodily autonomy (abortion increases chances of miscarriages and breast cancer). Abortion, given the golden seal of approval by your government. Adoption, given the red stamp of disapproval by your government since . Also, I turn 25 on May 25 of this year. Feel free to think of me and hope I’m having a happy birthday. Sources: plannedparenthood.org, Google.

          • Becca

            My sentence that says, “not near enough red tape,” should say, “not near as much red tape.” I guess I should have proofread this.

          • Paul Wagner

            Stop right there. Abortion does NOT repeat NOT “cause miscarriages and breast cancer”. PERIOD. There is NO credible medical proof of this. Stop repeating LIES. You have invalidated your argument. And blame right wing extremist legislatures for restricting who can adopt. Also, why does everyone on the right want to only adopt white babies? Who is going to adopt all the TEENAGERS? Who is going to adopt all the crack babies of all races? I NEVER hear any megachurch pastor like Rick Warren or any of these con men talking about that. No, it’s all force the woman to do something against her will. Because this argument is NOT about “life”. It’s about CONTROL. Right wing Christian Talibanists like you people are only interested in CONTROL of women. Really. If you want a theocracy, go to Iran.

          • Becca

            Just to be clear, I didn’t say cause, I said increase the chances of breast cancer and miscarriages. Chances, as in likelihood. Not everyone on the right wants to adopt only white babies. The majority of people I know who have adopted have adopted minority race children. Most of those people are my family or friends. Many of them tend to vote Republican. People, who want to give teenagers and crack babies a better life, who succeed in untangling themselves from the red tape are going to adopt them. Did Republicans play a large role in making all that red tape? Yup they sure did. Again, another system that is flawed, our government. I am a woman, and I don’t at all feel forced to make a decision against my will—I was the one who chose to have sex right? And trust in some form of birth control that’s not 100% effective? Please stop comparing conservatives to the Taliban. Sounds like you’re just trying to stir up an argument. I really not interested in arguing, but stating my opinion. So I guess if I have again “invalidated my argument” as you would say by making hot-headed comments, I apologize. Also, I personally disagree with what most mega-church pastors would say on most subjects. People such as Rick Warren, Joel Osteen, and Joyce Meyer most of the time don’t preach the truth, and are often blasphemous, as those of us in the Church would say.

          • Paul Wagner

            Again, NO MEDICAL EVIDENCE of “increasing chances”. NONE. Zilch. Stop spreading lies.

          • MayhemMama

            Sorry Paul, but your argument about all those kiddos in foster care falls very short. We tried multiple times to adopt, but because the courts are all about keeping those nuclear family together no matter what damage they are doing to the child most of those kids are not available for adoption. They are forever in a holding pattern, waiting for their “parents” to get their lives together when in reality they probably never will.
            At the time we were of age to adopt, hubby and I were willing to adopt any child that needed a family. We were openly told by members of the black community that they would have nothing to do with us if we adopted a black child. They would not help us rear the child to know his/her cultural heritage. To rear a child of a different “race” is takes work. A LOT of work. It also takes people in the community who will accept that child. So no, we did not seek out an adoption of a black child because we did not want any child to be put in that position. Ultimately, after 5 years of trying to adopt, we chose to adopt 2 children of Asian descent. We had to go out of country because we could not afford emotionally of fiscally to adopt here in the US.
            As far as you telling those of us who are pro-life that all our facts are “debunked”, I would encourage you to find out your facts from non-liberal/pro-abortion sources.
            I do believe that life needs to be protected from conception to natural life. I also believe that each person needs to accept responsibility for their actions – you decide to have sex, you are responsible for the consequences of that action. If you have no job and can’t afford to rear a child – then don’t have sex. We are not animals – we have the ability to say no and control bodily urges, men as well as women. I do not believe that the state should be supporting ANYONE for their “choices”. Should they receive assistance to get back on their feet after a job loss, to assist with healthy food (beans, veggies, fruits and milk) until they can get another job – yes. Do I believe that criminals should be put to death – no. Do I believe that someone dying should be euthanized – no. Do I believe that removal of food and water should be allowed for someone who is unresponsive – no.
            Our society needs to embrace a few of the morals and beliefs of our history – personal accountability, hard work and lending a hand to each other – and give up on the “nanny state” and “they owe me” mentality. Children need to be cherished and reared to believe that they can make a difference in the world through hard work and everyone needs to remember that life does not owe them anything and neither does the world – we owe the world.

    • Smoky Blokey

      How about separating pro-abortionists & state….like Planned Parenthood getting taxpayer money to rip over 300,000 babies out of their mother’s wombs!!!

    • Melanie Appleton

      There are so many other options for women who choose not to parent a child but still want to have sex. You are not, nor have you ever been, a “forgotten deomgraphic” (your typo, not mine). If you decide to use abortion as your form of birth control, then, yes, quite frankly, you are a murderer. The end.
      P.S., this has NOTHING to do with church (any church)

    • Becca

      Nope. you could go the route of J Gray and have some sort of surgery or choose a method of long-term birth control. But basically if you’re going to do something, you need to understand the consequences. Consequences being, what results after the action, not something bad. If you’re going to have sex to need to understand the consequences. One of those consequences is the possibility of pregnancy, with another human being. Yes even if the pill doesn’t work or the condom broke, understand that those man-made products are not 100% effective. If a woman or you in this case, gets pregnant, YES it is your responsibility to carry that child to term. You are an adult. It is your responsibility to be a responsible citizen, pay taxes, pay your bills, not infringe on the rights of others, be in your next door neighbor, your boss or your unborn child. Yes child not fetus, thank you.

      • ResignAlready

        There is no responsibility to turn a clump of cells into a baby if you don’t want to. If those other methods of birth control fail then people can turn to abortion. The fetus is not human so it ha no moral or legal rights so the only thing we should be considering is the well being of the woman. It is more risky to a woman’s health to be pregnant than to have an abortion and raising a child is costly and time consuming. So it makes sense that we have options for women who don’t want to go through birth or motherhood. It is moral for us to value them higher than a non conscious clump of cells.

    • Ricky

      I agree 100 percent that there should separation of church and state Colette, but this isn’t a matter of church and state. Churches have a stance on this issue, yes, but that doesn’t mean that is the only reason it is wrong. There are many many many laws that if tomorrow they just made legal then churches would speak out against, but that doesn’t mean it’s the only reason to make it illegal. If all of the sudden rape was deemed as legal, I’m sure most churches would be up in arms, but that doesn’t mean that you could say, well hey, separation of church and state, I guess we just can’t do anything about it.

      Just to make this clear, I’m not trying to compare rape and abortion. I just wanted to pick a crime. Murder seemed a little redundant.

  • M

    That was a great response. I wish he also would have advocated for extensive sex education and easy access to birth control methods so the number of women who find themselves facing an abortion decreases. People are going to have sex and abortions are still going to happen whether it’s legal or not. I can only imagine how hard emotionally and mentally it must be to find yourself pregnant when you are not ready or don’t want children at all, (especially when rape is the method of conception) but this is exactly why we should promote easy access to birth control methods and extensive (age-appropriate!) sex education. I would preface this by saying if you consensually engaged in sex and used proper precautions correctly and you still end up pregnant than God clearly wanted that baby to exist so should be put up for adoption if you do not want it. (but personally that’s just an opinion).

    • disqus_yMA6TiNyjP

      Easy access to birth control? What could be easier than going to your local pharmacy and plopping down some cash for a box of condoms? If you don’t like condoms (even though you should because condoms protect women from more things than pregnancy), trot on over to Planned Parenthood and they can give you birth control. I know, because I’ve done it. If you’re going to have sex, be responsible enough to avail yourself of what’s already out there. Birth control isn’t hard to get at all. It may not always be “convenient,” but it’s a helluva lot more convenient than pregnancy.

    • machtyn

      The only safe sex is abstinence with respect to not getting pregnant. You state that people are going to have sex anyway. Yes, that is true. But that doesn’t mean the child should be punished for their mistakes.

      You state that illegal abortions will continue to happen. Frankly, if a person is willing to murder their own child, then they are willing to suffer the consequences of a dangerous illegal abortion, up to and including death.

  • dba_vagabond_trader

    She does make a good argument for my Constitutional right to keep the fruits of my labor, rather than have government threaten me, then pick my pocket to provide for strangers.

    No pun intended.

  • The One and Only Slar

    This argument fails at this key point: “Aside from cases of rape…” Do you accept a “rape exception” to your anti-abortion stance? If, so, then your argument, that since limits to bodily integrity are already in place, then there is no justification for abortion, has, itself, limitations that invalidate it at its core. If you do not support a “rape exception,” then you allow that women have no agency in controlling their own body, as a pregnancy started by force can be continued by force, making any woman no more than an object, an incubator for decisions made by someone else.

    • Rays

      Abortion is another way of people just shoving their own mistakes under the rug and then forgetting about them. People in our society these days I feel just blame and blame and take no responsibility. I loved the way you made your points, Matt. On a personal view, people need to realize that if you didn’t want a baby that you should THINK before your decide to sleep with someone. The sanctity of sex is not recognized in society, It has become selfish. Sex is sharing yourself with someone else that you should care about. Thought should be given to the actual purpose of sex — to procreate. If you’re not old enough or prepared enough to deal with the possible consequences of sex, don’t have it. And if you do, don’t try to hide it, deal with it and give that child the best life possible. They can’t help who they’re born to, that baby was YOUR DECISION when you decided to HAVE SEX. Its simple, the argument of ‘i didn’t mean to’ is invalid because we ALL know that contraceptives aren’t ever considered to be 100% effective and sex has always had the possible outcome of a baby. It’s a fact, people.

      • Paul Wagner

        Forced birth is worse than slavery.

        • Nicole Duvall

          And you know all about it. As a man.

    • cg

      I don’t think abortion is justified in the case of a rape. Yes, it’s an unwanted baby to the mother, but the fact that the baby was created as a result of a rape doesn’t make it a bad baby. It’s certainly not their fault, so why should they pay the price. ADOPTION.

      • ResignAlready

        Because it is a non conscious clump of cells and not actually a person yet. It is horribly unethical to force a woman who just got raped to bring the child of her rapist into existence.

  • Chris Stratford

    If a talented singer got sick, and you voluntarily agreed to be hooked up for nine months to keep him alive, could you renege on the deal at any point in the name of bodily autonomy? A person (except in cases of rape) voluntarily agreed to engage in an activity that is likely to result in another person being created. That is when the choice is made. I am pro-choice, but i am for one time timely choice, not a anytime too late choice.

    • Jumping Jehosaphat

      Actually, it is NOT “likely”. Women are fertile for about 6 days a month. In all honesty, the odds are in a lady’s favour to not get pregnant.

  • JD

    Rachel is the product of one semester of law school. I’ve met her type many times. Attack with hollow arguments and try to gloss over the substance. It’s actually really pathetic.

    • Jumping Jehosaphat

      Rachel’s whole e-mail/response was just…odd. Matt’s was worse though.

  • Samantha

    This case presented was formally written by Judith Jarvis Thomson in “A Defense of Abortion” and she clearly used the case of a famous violinist (instead of the singer) as an argument against abortion in the case of rape. She went on to present another case of if you opened your window one evening (even a window with bars) and a homeless man stumbled in what would you be expect to do? Since it is your house you have the right to kick him out. It is not your responsibility to keep him, feed him, and care for him just because he stumbled into your house. You tried to keep him out (contraception) and you did not willingly let him into your house and therefore have the right to kick him out. This is the argument she uses against those who have accidentally gotten pregnancy and no longer wish to be.

    • De Hota

      Except the homeless person argument doesn’t really make sense. Homeless people don’t stumble into your house if the doors are locked. And if a homeless person breaks into your house, but will die if you force them to leave, then yes, you do have a moral obligation to allow them to stay. Once the term is up you can ask them to leave, if that is your decision, but to act otherwise would be actively killing them. They were not dead until you decided that your convenience was more important than their life.

      On a side note: how many more men per year will be accused of rape if you make that the only acceptable scenario? In reality rape accounts for an extremely small percentage of unintended pregnancies.

  • Christian Feminist

    While I agree that Rachel picked a weak analogy for bodily autonomy, the author of this post is equally unconvincing. As a woman, I find it laughable and infuriating that there are people in this world, many of whom are male, who want to legislate what I can do with my own body. If I get pregnant, it is my right to decide whether to carry the pregnancy to term or abort the fetus. It makes me sad to see that legislators and anti-choicers do not seem to respect a woman’s power over her own body.
    I’ve seen a couple of remarks here stating that, if women don’t want to get pregnant, they should invest in better birth control. But, unfortunately, a great deal of anti-choice people are opposed not only to birth control but to the teaching of basic sex ed in the classrooms. I’ve never understood the latter. It stands to reason that teaching horny teenagers about birth control would lower the rate of unwanted teen pregnancies, indefinitely. It’s also not very helpful that birth control, while it comes in many forms, can be quite expensive, and unobtainable to women who earn lower wages.
    So, unless you plan on making birth control widely obtainable for the public, I think you should stop shaming women for exercising bodily autonomy. It’s my body. I can do what I want with it. And it’s not up to anyone besides myself whether or not I decide to become a mother.

    • Nicole Duvall

      Poor thing. You aren’t a Christian, nor are you a feminist.

      • Lacey

        Thank god you can decide that for her as well, amirite?

        • Nicole Duvall

          Nope. I didn’t decide it for her. She exhibited what she is through her non-Christian mindset.

      • Paul Wagner

        So thinking for one’s own self isn’t feminist? Nice to see a woman embracing forced birth. Keep em barefoot, pregnant and stupid is what you fundies like, isn’t it?

        • Nicole Duvall

          Femininity is being feminine. Why would you think I’m a “fundie”? I don’t profess to be one.

    • Sarah

      I just want to point out that with the Obama care I now get my birth control free of charge. It used to cost me 9 dollars a month for the pills, but at the turning of 2014 I went to buy and they told me it was now free. I don’t think that is an excuse anymore

  • Rutger

    Sorry, but he talked like a politician, ignoring the points the argument made and talked around it until he was talking again about easier topics. I mean public masturbation? Being able to have ownership of your own body has nothing to do with publicly inflicting vile behavior. This argument was poorly made and I’m ashamed for him. Reading this was like cheering for my sports team and then they started bribing the refs, shooting the opponents knee caps, and then prancing around like it’s a noble victory. C’mon, we’re better than this shmut.

  • NotTalkingOutOfMyAss

    Interesting. I worked for Planned Parenthood for four years, and I can assure you no babies are being “torn apart” or “brutally murdered”. It would actually surprise you what the devitalized tissue looks like after a standard, first-trimester abortion. It’s just a yellow, somewhat cloudy liquid. Tissue obtained during the procedure is then examined by a nurse (me) or physician to make sure everything went correctly. There are no dead baby chunks floating around, or even blood for that matter. You actually cannot even see the cells with the naked eye, so the idea of pulling a bloody, screaming baby out is ludicrous. Please do not spread incorrect facts just for the sake of making a sensationalist argument. I can tell right off the bat you have absolutely no experience with or insight to the actual procedures, so don’t pretend that you do.

    • Pro-life

      Abortionist Talked to Babies’ Body Parts During Abortions: “Come on Little Arm, I Know You’re There”

      An abortionist who talks to aborted baby parts, saying things like,
      “Come on, little arm, I know you’re here! Now you stop hiding from me!”

      Daily abortion quotas. Threats of being fired for not answering the
      phone by the third ring to sell an abortion. A young sex slave brought
      in by her captor for an abortion. A mother who brought her 16-year-old
      daughter into Planned Parenthood for an abortion under the pretense of a
      prenatal visit.

      These
      are the things that a former Planned Parenthood worker’s nightmares are
      made of. These are things one nurse experienced working for what she
      describes as “a money-grubbing, evil, very sad, sad place to work.”
      Former Planned Parenthood nurse Marianne Anderson is now free
      from her job at the Planned Parenthood abortion center in Indianapolis,
      but her stomach still ties in knots every time she drives past the
      building.

      • Jumping Jehosaphat

        Thanks for all the BS!

    • Pro-life

      I would add that the presence of body parts or not in no way affects the above arguments. If you came up with the “perfect” abortion procedure where the baby truly is completely liquified in utero, none of the above arguments are change. I am reminded of a serial killer in Houston a long time ago who would put his victims in lime filled plastic bags, which would liquify them. That, I suppose, wasn’t murder?

    • Guest

      That still sounds pretty horrifying to me. The description of a yellow liquid turns my stomach. I have seen real fetuses of cats and dogs spayed in early pregnancy (I work at a vet clinic). They have eye dots and tiny legs, a definite form. Most fetuses look alike early on, and they are more than a liquid. It sounds like something about the abortion process causes the liquid appearance.

  • Paul Wagner

    Sigh. Walsh is arguing from a premise that a woman has NO autonomy over her own body, that she is just a walking uterus, only there to be “barefoot and pregnant” and that she has no choice in the matter. The joke is on him, and you, because it reveals you as NOT “pro-life”, but rather as FORCED BIRTH.

    • A-Train

      not at all. to simpletons, yes.

  • Jumping Jehosaphat

    I was really hoping that this would be an article on how many children are wanted to be adopted right now (statistics and hard facts- adoption versus those stuck in the foster system whom never get adopted; the amount of parents waiting RIGHT NOW to adopt an American baby). I think that would have been a far better and logical argument which WOULD actually give thought to perhaps adoption is a better option than abortion. Instead, all I read was, “No, no, no. Live with your mistakes.” While the argument I am suggesting does not delve into body autonomy (which I think you did a poor job of giving credence to in this situation anyway and your examples were equally bad), it would give a more concrete reason for why you should be open to adoption over abortion. You also did not address the stigmatization of unwed (potentially teen) mothers in our society, which adds to the effect of wanting an abortion (imagine if our society welcomed/loved all pregnant women regardless!). Also, you are totally free to do as you please (break the speed limit, not pay taxes, steal, whatever), but you must accept the consequences for such actions from breaking the rules of our society. In the end we end up talking about what the law says you are autonomous to do versus not, so yes we do have a divide there, as abortions are legal. So while you do not have total control of the things you are allowed to do to yourself and to others (such as doing drugs or raping people), currently abortion is one, so yes, you do have the autonomy to make THIS decision at this time.

    • A-Train

      I don’t see many people against adoption. It’s a much better route than murder.

      • Jumping Jehosaphat

        The problem is that not enough people are doing it, especially for non-white American babies.

  • tx

    I used to be anti, but it was extremely one sided. Nothing wrong with abortion when done properly for the proper reason, just like having a child properly for the proper reasons. Both scenarios can be abused both can be justified. It’s the cultural and ideological/religious conditioning that causes the issue really.

  • Evan

    Your arguments are equally flawed Matt. I’ll address just two. 2) Not all women are pregnant by choice or irresponsible actions. Many women and young girls become pregnant via the forced actions of others (it’s called rape and molestation). 4) Natural order is violated all of the time and in ways you likely wouldn’t object to. You interfere with natural order when you cure sickness, or get immunized. If I get cancer, am I just supposed to just accept the consequences, since getting cancer was part of God’s plan? Furthermore, your argument suggests women shouldn’t seek fertility treatments, since God never intended for them to get pregnant. Would you also deny them the right to have a child?

    • Guest

      The author actually acknowledged your first point and said he was leaving those situations out of the argument. So you should as well. And you are really stretching his statements about natural order. Yes, we as people intervene with “the way things are” on a daily basis in the ways you describe. That is not at all what he was talking about or even implying. If you notice, he doesn’t condemn extraordinary measures. He just calls them what they are.

  • tarawa1943

    I say plaudits to Young Conservatives, super plaudits, this is outstanding and very clear thinking. Abortion is murder, killing of an unborn or born child is murder, killing a human life, help our nation G-d, as we repent and ask for forgiveness for this heinous sin. Our nation and the world is in for severe Judgement and the Wrath of G-d for these abortions and other sins.!

  • Elizabeth Hall

    Michael Smith posted this on Facebook:

    Perhaps no aspect of womyn’s fight against the oppression of the heteronormative patriarchy indicates the crass arrogance and selfishness better than support for abortion because elective abortion says this to the unborn:
    “I deserve to live and you do not. I have worth because I was born. I was nurtured and educated to achieve social and economic relevance, but I’m too selfish to give you that chance, so for you, I choose not to give you the opportunity that I was given.”

  • Smoky Blokey

    The key to understanding life is karma & reembodiment…..I feel most of us have all lived many lifetimes on earth & we stay here till we get it right….everything in life is karma….if one gets pregnant, that means that baby is supposed to be born at a certain time, in a certain place , into a certain family to balance their karma…These are Cosmic Cycles & if by one’s own free will, they snuff out that life, that soul has to wait sometimes up to a 1,000 years to find the right circumstance to be born again & the ones involved in the abortion have made more karma that will have to be balanced in the future!
    By the same token, even if one gets raped, they need to have the baby, because it was their karma to be raped, as maybe they raped someone in a previous life….this is how life works, “what goes around comes around”…the Law of Life is a circle, what you send out comes right back to your doorstep…or even if the birth control does not work & you get pregnant, you still must have the baby!!!

  • Jessica P.

    I don’t agree with abortion. I do believe that a woman’s body is her’s to do with as she chooses. (Piercing’s, tattoos, prostitution, drugs, etc… Although – I would highly suggest against the illegal activities!) And when a woman chooses to act for herself and has unprotected sex – she had the right to make that choice for herself. But here’s the kicker that a lot of pro-choice people tend to forget: there are consequences to your actions. Good and bad consequences! If you didn’t want a baby – you should have been prepared with a condom, contraception, etc… The man is NOT the only one in the equation that can be prepared (although I would highly recommend re-thinking the type of man you are sleeping with if they don’t come prepared…). I don’t understand why pro-choice people are so up-in-arms against ‘pro-lifer’s’ when they can’t even see that protecting themselves will not only save time and energy down the road – but also heartbreak and trauma. I have lost count of the comments I have read from women who had abortions that felt such guilt years and years later – wishing they had never went through with it. The argument this person made between two strangers hooked up to each other is such a ridiculous and weak argument. If this is all they had in their bag of arsenal – they should admit defeat and come on over to the ‘dark side’ (as they would probably put it…). We won’t bite – I promise!

  • Homsikpanda

    not every mother has an immediate attachment to their child at point of conception, and you know ,we’ve all made shitty mistakes. sometimes an abortion is the best answer, sometimes not. personally i feel it’s a decision only the mother should make instead of society or a dude on a blog…especially NOT A DUDE. what right do you have to judge?

    if you’re “THAT” up tight about it, science has evolve to the point where a child can be transplanted from one womb to another with some effort. why not sacrifice yourself so that others may live. (i.e. why don’t you carry the unwanted child so it has a chance at life)

  • cabensg

    If you are able physically to have a child, having sex with contraception is not always safe and having sex with no contraception will likely end up in a pregnancy. For those who actually accept the consequences of their actions (having sex) a pregnancy means they’ve spun the wheel of chance and lost and now must accept the consequences. Because the left knows it cannot rule a moral people abortion is just one more way to help people not take responsible for their actions. Abortion doesn’t stand alone it’s part of a now lengthy list the left has convinced people is the correct way to avoid any consequence for their action. Abortion is just a way out for those who choose to not take responsibility for their actions and yes you are taking a human life.

    I’ll leave the cases of endangering a mothers life, incest and rape to the personal physician and the woman and/or family involved as I consider that’s how it should be. Those cases should be handled privately and without government intrusion one way or another.

  • barbaro70

    Brilliant, absolutely brilliant! I have at one time or another read or heard all of the arguments against abortion, but this is the most comprehensive one on the bodily autonomy argument. How could we send this brilliant piece to every pro abort in the world to see how they would respond?
    Poor, poor Rachel. Did she ever respond? Not that she would have much to say. Oh, I just heard that she moved into the Womyn´s Center at the University of Liberalism, and she licks her wounds 24 hours a day, so she has not time to respond. Oh my.

  • Ramon Maldonado

    God bless you, Matt Walsh!

  • daddy_2010

    Brilliant response.

  • Problem#99

    I am not pro-choice. I am not pro-life. I am pro-mind your own fucking business. That’s the biggest problem with the people of this world today. They feel they have so much knowledge, morality, and insight – that they should tell others how to live too, more often than not as unwelcomed advise or criticism. The bottom line in this life is that I am not you, I will never be you, and we should both rejoice at such a prospect. And while I am happy to know and respect your firm morality and opinions if such feelings are not reciprocated in regards to my morality and opinions then you can take yours and share them with someone who will turn your words into scripture for future generations. BTW – I enjoyed reading your article, it was well written and thought provoking and enjoyed your point #3.

  • ChrisK

    There is an abortion argument that has been bouncing in my mind, and this article almost targets it directly. I want to ask some of the pro-abortion folks what their thoughts are on suicide. Most folks are against it and in fact, suicide attempts are illegal in most states. But their argument for abortion is it is a woman’s right to choose. Suicide doesn’t count as a right to choose? Just want to know their argument then.

  • Denise

    Wow! Just wow! So well said.

  • Kali

    For all those saying “its the mothers resposibility not to get pregnant” then shouldn’t it be HER responsibility to do what she wants with the fetus as well? A lot of your arguments are very contradicting. You’re telling woman not to control the fate of a life by getting an abortion yet you’re also attempting to control hers by fighting against abortion. Many abortions are also given to females in horrible relationships or life situations. The unborn child could be raised under dark circumstances and many could end up in foster homes because not all adoptions just go over swell without problems. In the book ‘Freakanomics’ an economist describe the large spike in crime in the 70s and 80s and the sudden decrease of crime in the 90s. This shift was not caused by better law enforcement or stricter laws but indeed by the availability of abortion. A child being raised under tough situations has a high chance of become a criminal and as previously stated a majority of abortions are given to poor single mothers. An abortion could actually be saving a life by having a future murderer to never be born, which obviously no one would be able to directly predict from the start but statistics don’t lie. If anyone does not believe me on this, read the book for yourself because I basically summarized. I think if someone has an abortion the solution is for them not to get one, thats fine. But those who do chose to get them have every right to just as have to not. You may all think you’re good and better people by trying to crush abortion when in reality you’re really not, you just have different values and it’s ignorant and unfair and just completely disrespects others. Imagine if I responded to all of you saying to go and get an abortion because think its wrong if you don’t. You’d all be pretty pissed and offended, right? Its basically the same deal, learn to be respectful.

    • Rachel

      I completely agree with this!!

    • Guest

      Just one snag. “Statistics don’t lie”…..um, actually, they can and often do. I took college statistics class. There are sooo many ways statistical figures can be used and misused. My text book was filled with ethics content.

  • Chris Shula

    You know, I’m having trouble processing what exactly he’s saying here, but that could just be my own stupidity causing that. My personal opinion though, I’m both pro-life and pro-choice. Simply put, I feel as though both of the arguments are flawed. Bodily autonomy should be specified to the reproductive system, the conception of a child vs. the conception of a fetus should be defined (although that’s a tough one, more opinionated than anything). But the reason why I say I’m pro-life and pro-choice is because I feel as if aborting a child, full body and all, goes against my morals; aborting a fetus is not so much against my morals.

    I mean, that’s the way I was brought up. My mother is a vegetarian, but eats eggs.

    I mean I’m undecided in a way; honestly I don’t even think this stuff can be debated. On top of that, I don’t think men have the right to say. Women, or at least my perception of women, are definitely smart enough to decide their morals. After all, until later on after the baby is born, all she is is a part of her mother with her father’s genes… I think I just realized why there’s such a controversial issue here.

  • KrisThomp

    yes, abortion is ‘wrong’ on many levels for Christians (including myself) and others throughout the world. it is not the right of the government to make those choices for all women. It’s between a women (possibly a man ..if he is in the picture) and her God. (remember not everyone is a Christian) I have a 2 year old myself and can’t imagine the thought of abortion. Have friends who children were born 2 months early when abortion would still be legal…I get it – it’s a horrible choice. But not ours to make for others, and not ours to judge those who do. We have to remember that God doesn’t want us to judge others..therefore we should stand by those who have to make these choices and pray for them that they find peace.

    • lionstar

      No God doesn’t want us to condemn others. We are supposed to judge otherwise Galatians 6:1 becomes null and void. It says “Brothers and sisters, if someone is caught in a sin, you who live by the Spirit should restore that person gently. But watch yourselves, or you also may be tempted.” How are we to know if someone is in sin unless we judge their actions? Also in Matthew 7:15 -20 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.” Again, how are we supposed to know them by their fruits unless we judge their actions? And before you whip out Matthew 7:1 on me “Judge not lest you be judged” The word in the original text means to condemn and write off as useless. We aren’t supposed to write people off. We are supposed to help them in a loving way to the truth. In Proverbs 6:16-18 the Bible lists seven things that God hates and one of them is “hands that shed innocent blood.” What could be more innocent than an unborn child?

      .

  • Isabel Kilian

    In Muslim Countries Women are just the property of men. They can be raped, killed, walked on leashes, sold and used as a sexual slave. It is all legal because women are not persons. Here women say their children are not persons until they are born. I wish these women had to live under the Taliban.

  • Michael Superczynski

    Great article but the abortion lovers don’t think the baby is alive when in the womb. They think that the baby isn’t alive until it exits the vagina. Ridiculous but that’s how they view it. I believe that life begins at conception.

    • Welcome_2_the_Future

      That is because they are hypocrites. Scott Peterson is sitting on DEATH ROW for DOUBLE HOMICIDE for the killing of his wife Lacy and the UNBORN FETUS inside of her womb. There has not been one pro abortion person in this entire country at any point out in front of that jail marching in protest of that conviction.

  • BrandonP

    I would like to say that people who think that abortion is morally the rights of the mother to have or have not a baby in her womb are without a doubt mentally unstable people, or in fact not mature enough to handle the out come of sex. With sex come the chance of getting pregnant. Casual sex is good a should be good.. the bible even says we as humans should enjoy our partners with sex. But saying that a human life is nothing more then cells and such goes beyond all logic as to why humans are here on earth. I have one question to all those that abortion is good and should be a choice. What if your mom made the choice to abort you? You think about that and come to any conclusion but the conclusion of, well I would not be here right now! However, you still would exsist in my opinion is the spirtual world, because I believe everyone has a right to live. Not the right of the women, but the right to live as God attended you to do. You can say and argue all you want about well am not a Godly person or even care about the what that crazy christian is talking about on this post. You do have that right to that opinion, just as I have that right to say my opinion. However, you cannot claim the moral high ground when you want to kill a POTENTIAL person, thats what it will be!! Not something other then that! It will become a person left to its own nature. It will not become a monkey, dog, car, or any other object or animal you can think of. It will become a human life!!! I say all of this cause I when younger decided to go along with my girl friend at the time and support her decsion to have an abortion. It was without a doubt one of the hardest things I have ever had to do!! Growing up a Christian and knowing what God says about all human life is and was a choice!! I had the choice to do what I did. Yes, she was the one carrying and so on and so forth. However, it affected just the same, knowing that i potential life was ended and I supported it was something I will be judged for the choices I made when the Lord calls for me home.. Life is all about choice, however how will you be judged in the end. Whether you believe in a higher power or not, for we as humans will judge others as well. God gave all of us free will to make choices in life. Not to judge other choices which all of us do, its human to do it! Put we dont have the moral high ground to persecute anyone else’s choices…

  • TeacherSTL

    Wow. Nailed it. I thought all conservatives were stupid and/or evil. No?

  • Will Buckingham

    Why is it that only men can see this issue clearly enough to understand it?!?

  • Lizbee

    I miscarried three times. I wonder every day about my three babies and what our lives would have been, I miss that I never had the opportunity to hold them close, see their smiles, their laughter, here their first cries, their first coos, so many things lost. It is so beyond me how any one can murder their unborn child.

  • BrandonP

    You ever write something and get so emotional and your thoughts are running a thousand miles an hour. Well that was me in my last post. I am pretty passionate about this issue and it does not always get typed the way I would like. Am a humble guy and will accept the fact that am just human, male and I make mistakes.. so be it!!!

  • BrandonP

    LIZBEE, my wife and I miscarried three times as well and we think about it on occasion what our babies would be like now. We know being christians that we will see them one day in heaven. Now we have 3 great kids and are very happy, but thought of them and what they could have been goes through our minds from time to time…I wondered if my choice of letting my girl friend was some punishment from God on me? I have now accepted the fact that God does not work like that and he made us to make choices in life. So asked forgiveness and moved on.

  • Adriana Medina

    Wow. I believe the term “owned” is in order here. Nice defense.

  • Mike

    I seriously want to know if there was a response to this.

  • Blake Reikofski

    A man who chooses not support/sustain his child faces jail, a woman faces accolades if she terminates it early enough, and handouts if she decides to keep it but does not want to work to support it.

  • Lee

    Too good not to share. Thank you. What about the bodily autonomy of the unborn child?

  • Tyler Hathcock

    “To kill someone is to rob them of their future, are you prepared to do that?” -Tear, from Tales of The Abyss

  • Blake

    Back to the original question though…if I could save someones life by being strapped to them for nine months, I would like to think I would do that. It isn’t anything that is actually happening or a cure for anything, but people give away kidneys daily to save others, and that is no walk in the park either.

  • SaudiAmerican

    Wow. Very well put. I commend this man. Logic 101, dummies!

  • KG

    Following some the the logic posed in the article, the article made me question from another angle. If the mother has the right to claim bodily autonomy, doesn’t the child have that same right? The child didn’t ask to be put there. Except in the case of rape, didn’t the mother play an active role in the child being in this position? Is the child, then, a victim in this situation — a prisoner in a bodily prison, on death row with its life at the mercy of both its human “creator” and its jailer? If so, doesn’t the child’s bodily autonomy outrank the mother’s in that case?

  • NotaDick

    Such bullshit

  • Fact vs Myth

    How about people get educated before they make the decision to murder (not spontaneous abortions aka miscarriages) a baby? That’s what they are, say it, a baby. By 3 weeks the baby is not just a “bunch of cells”. The heart is formed and beating by 3-4 weeks, with all major veins completed. They even look like a baby by 9 weeks (aka recognizable as a human being). Their kidneys are formed by 5 weeks and start excreting urine by 9 wks. Have respiratory movements 11-12 wks. They have vocal cords, sucking present, and early taste buds formed, (by 16 wks it’s known they like swallowing the amniotic fluid better when sweetened), fine hair on the eyebrows all of it by 12 wks.. Hmm sounds like a baby? Even has even has definite likes vs dislikes (previously stated sweetened amniotic fluid).. You can feel kicking as early as 16 wks, of course they’ve been moving their arms and legs before that. Did you know they make purposeful movements in response to firm touch? They can feel, which is why the baby requires anesthesia when invasive intrauterine procedures are performed. Since their skin is really thin and wrinkled around 16-17 wks, it’s logical to KNOW not think, but KNOW they’re actually WAY more sensitive to pain than we are since our skin is much thicker (which is our protective layer). General sense organs are differentiated by 16 weeks which supports, what I said. A specialized organ or structure, such as the eye, ear, tongue, nose, or skin, where sensory neurons are concentrated and that functions as a receptor. Such as vision, auditory, vestibular, and pain senses. That’s right pain. Good to know abortions can be done up to 20 wks. You’re not only are killing a growing, developing or some parts already developed just maturing (cognitively, gross/fine motor) PERSON, good to know they can feel it too. But hey there’s still parts of our body and organs that don’t finish maturing till we’re 18-21.. SO their life doesn’t matter either…
    References:
    Lowdermilk, D. & Perry, S. & Cashion, K.(2010). Maternity nursing. 8th Edition. St. Louis, MO: Mosby.
    International Human Genome Sequencing Consortium. (2001). Inital sequencing and analysis of the human genome. Nature, 409 (6822), 860-921.
    McInerney, J. (2008). Behavioral genetics.www.ornl.gov/sci/techresources…
    International Society of Nurses in Genetics (ISONG). (2006). Genetics/genomic nursing:Scope and standards of practice (2nd ed.). Washington, D.C: American Nurses Association.
    C.J. Lockwood, & T.R. Moore (Eds.). Creasy and Resnik’s maternal-fetal medicine: Principles and practice (6th ed.). Philadelphia:Saunders.

  • prdamrican

    Bravo.

  • anonymous

    Ok i have worked in the mental health system and this is what i have seen and heard from people in the mental health system. Most i would say 80% of them who had parents that are mentally ill. Why should tax payers be made to continually have to pay for them and the children they are having most of them wind up with ssi checks every month. It is cheaper to keep them in mental hospitals then to give individual checks every month. They should not be allowed to have children if they can not get out to work to support those children and if they get an ssi check then they should be made to take meds and do therapy every single week.

  • parated2k

    abortion on demand = lynching. Both are done to someone, by someone who considers them “unwanted”.

  • Brian

    My kids was born 6 weeks early last week. She’s perfect and healthy for the next few weeks lives in the Nicu. They have such babies called micro primees that are under 25 weeks and weight 1-2 pounds. I’ll bet you any amount of money that any doctor or nurse there will say those are human lives! There is no such thing as inconvenience that ever make it acceptable to kill one of those precious lives. If you need some convincing go spend a week in the nicu it will change your life.

  • Let it be done

    I just don’t understand why you all are so auda cious that you believe that your PERSONAL beliefs dictate the decisions of others. Simple fact of the matter is “shit happens.” Sometimes people suffer circumstances that leave them no choice, while others desire the choice. If its a religious thing? Then you forget one of the fundamentals of creation. The divine deities gave us will. What we wish, so it shall be. If its a moral thing? Take a good look at the world we live in today. Even the world of centuries passed. a lot of stuff has and will continue to happen that will challenge these moralities and/or what the masses deem justifiable. This will be no different. Honestly, , I wonder if its the challenge that you all crave more than the actual end.

    • TMG

      You mean like dictating all of the decisions that unborn baby would make by removing their ability to do so completely?

      Yes, of course you don’t understand. You can’t think outside of that selfish little bubble you reside in.

    • Dawn Marie Christiansen

      I can NEVER believe that the painful and brutal way that these unborn children die is some part of fluid morality. They are dismembered, burned, stabbed, decapitated, and all manner of horrifying inhuman brutality. The nost helpless being are in extreme danger -and you want us to do nothing?

      If there was a serial murderer out there doing this to newborns, infants, toddlers, you would be horrified and want justice for the children they tortured. And yet, despite the STRONG scientific evidence that these unborn babies can FEEL the horrifying things done to them, you think that this is just an issue that eventually the society will degrade enough that even those standing for life will accept in time?

      No. That will not happen. there will always be those who see abortion for what it is: murder in the most horrifying degree. An unborn child has fingrprints by weel 11. Human enough to be fingerprinted, but not human enough to be human? That way of thinking defies all logic.

      Another reason why your thought process is flawed:
      Look through the history of our nation. there have been some horrifying legal things; slavery, child labor, unsafe and unsanitary conditions in food plants, mistreatments of minorities (like forcing Cherokee off their won land and forcing them on a mid-winter death march across baren land). Guess what, those atrocities were ended because people took a stand and refused to back down! what if we used the same argument with slavery? Or child labor? “Eventually society will accept it.”
      People all over our country couldn’t live with people being treated that way. They took a stand and refused to back down. They protected the vulnerable, and changed our nation for the better.

      I cchoose to take a stand for the innocent and vulnerable. I choose to do my best to end an attrocity that is a blight on the very soul of our nation. I cannot stand back and watch while babies are brutally murdered.

  • Tyrone Black DrPhill Hughes

    What about the fact that a woman just may not want to have a child at that time or should not have a child at that time due to financial reasons or due to having too many kids already! Its her CHOICE!!!!
    All u pro lifers get the hell out of here! Abortion is just like religion and politics whatever you believe keep it to yourself!
    Teach it in your own homes, stop trying to force what you believe in on others as if your beliefs are the only and right beliefs! No one should be forced to see things your way or my way!

    • TMG

      “No one should be forced to see things your way or my way!”

      Except that unborn baby, right Tyrone?

    • Guest

      It’s a pro-life article… I’m not sure how you can expect pro-life individuals to go away. The author was challenged to respond to a pro-choice email, and his response to it was this pro-life article. Other people are always going to have different views than you do. That’s just the way it is. It’s unfair to expect people to keep quiet about what they believe.

  • Isaac

    I don’t get what is so hard about this? People have been raising kids in way worse situations way before America. Come on! This is friggin ‘Murica, where you can reside here without paying taxes and ignoring the law and still receive huge amounts of help from a bloated government. Stop making up excuses to get rid of your “unwanted fetus.”

    Scientists determine the beginning of life at the first cell and newsflash, that fetus has DNA which is completely unique. Life literally begins at contraception, you have another life form that is on its way to become a fully grown adult, in your body. Wait, wait, wait, you don’t want it there though, you didn’t sign any form to allow this life to develop in your womb. Well, see, there is this thing we learn about in health class and from doctors. ONLY %100 IS ABSTINENCE. What the hell is so complicated to understand that? Your desires to have sex trump the fate of these life forms you are creating in your body? And YES, YOU ARE CREATING THEM. You have agreed when using contraceptives that there still is a chance of getting pregnant. By engaging in intercourse, you have agreed to these risks which means they are YOUR responsibility, this goes for all the fellas too who think they can boss women around. Don’t even get me started on how much this abortion shit is for money and convenience.

    I suppose next is rape. It is a traumatic experience, absolutely awful but you know what, get the hell over it and move on with the rest of your life, it’s tough but not impossible. There are assholes out in the world, and there will always be so get a weapon to defend yourself and carry on like the rest of us do. There are women out in the world with less than half the rights you have and they are carrying on. You can’t raise the baby, give it to someone who is responsible enough to take care of it. NEWSFLASH, they are plenty people who are willing to help “unwanted” children. It comes from this feeling of compassion for all living things. You pro aborts should try understanding that.

    Next, I suppose is the mother dying during pregnancy. ANOTHER NEWSFLASH! There is this thing called MEDICAL SCIENCE. It keeps progressing and getting better. This is not the fucking middle ages. Go have a C-Section under some anesthetics and be done with it.

    You women pro aborts should feel privileged to carry on our species. Men don’t get the honor to do something like that.

    Sorry, Im just aggravated from reading so many responses. Please remember, where you think there is no hope, there is hope. You just have to keep searching for it inside yourself and other. I guarantee you will find it and help an unborn child at having a chance at life just like you have gotten.

    • Guest

      You lost me at contraception.

    • Jon

      Your post would have been a lot more potent if you hadn’t been so incredibly insensitive towards rape victims. Telling them to “get over it and move on” is one of the most uncaring and harmful thing you could say. I agree with your viewpoint in general but let me put this out there that somebody else has said: ” Part of the beauty of social media is the fact that you can edit or delete before you post your content. When you choose to attack/mock a particular faith, you choose also to attack/mock a truly precious part of the lives of its followers. We’re all entitled to our opinions, but please think wisely before you hit “send”. Respect must be mutual.”

      This goes the same with groups of people like rape victims. You replied in an incredibly impersonal way to an EXTREMELY personal part of somebodies life that left them scarred.

  • GodfearingAtheist

    16 yr. old unwed mother living in poverty, pedophile 28 yr. old “father”, born with bi lateral cleft…should of been aborted, I guess.

  • Former Victim

    I have to say the arguments used here that 2 people consent to having sex and a child is the result sickens me. I was raped by at least 5 people in college over 24 years ago. I did not agree to becoming pregnant I did not agree to unprotected sex. I never knew their names or their reasons for doing what they did. I have not and will not tell my family what happened as their reasoning to this day is rape victims ask for it. I had an abortion, at that moment in time it was that or take my life as well. To say adoption would have meant giving up my life to care for a child in my womb knowing I did not want it, nor anything to do with that reminder of a horrible time in my life.
    I wanted no child to come at me later in life, in this day and age many adopted children go in search of that many times best left unknown. If I had not had an abortion all those years ago I would not be here today. But I have even heard the argument I had less of a value than the fetus I aborted.
    For those that say I am going to hell, if i believed in such a construct maybe but then maybe then I could seek out vengeance on those that put me in a situation where I felt I had no other options.
    I will say I feel cases of rape/incest abortions are few, and I am sure many know children born out such horrible situations. To say you know what I was going through is to make me a victim again and again and I will never be that.

    • Pro-life

      I’m so sorry to hear about that terrible situation. Anybody who claims to be pro-life and yet uses the argument that the fetus’s life has more value than the mother’s life is missing the point. I am pro-life. I believe the fetus and the mother have equal rights. One does not outweigh the other. Both have a right to life. Both have an inherent right to live. Also to be fair to Matt did say “aside from cases of rape . . .”

      • Former Victim

        You are correct he did, it is the many many others here that are blind to that side. I applaud Mr Walsh shaking down of the false arguments though in this article. The old ethics debate of a famous person unrelated to the person forced to support them is wrong on many levels.

        • Pro-life

          That’s what he was saying. He was saying how that argument is flawed. Is that what you’re saying or am i misinterpreting?

          • Former Victim

            You are correct he points out the flaws in the straw man arguments very well.

          • Pro-life

            So what is your original point?

          • Former Victim

            That many in the posts to this article act as if any time a child is created 2 people consented to sex. I did not pick to be raped and get pregnant. I had no say in it. I had no say in birth control to prevent it. For many in the posts to say the people killing their babies decided to have sex and should deal with it I simply state there are those that had no say in any part of it happening.

          • Pro-life

            oh ok. Thanks for clarifying! I agree with you that not everyone chooses to get pregnant. I do think that there are alternatives to abortion though. I realize though that not all women know about or have the resources to explore these options. I know that women feel helpless and scared. (I’m not saying that I fully understand how you or any other rape victim felt because I’ve never been in that situation.) I think it’s important that women are presented with the alternatives though. I also think that organizations that help women in situations such as these need to be more accessible and more widely publicized. Again, I am so sorry for the terrible things that happened to you.

  • Gerard Neumann

    In the case of the hospital analogy, no one is asking for one to be a good Samaritan. However, a minimally decent Samaritan would be willing to save another’s life with what amounts to less than 2 percent of his time here on earth. Letting the man die is wrong in any culture.

    And as far as bodily autonomy is concerned, my pediatrician son came up with this retort:

    “Your body? Wow! Your body has two beating hearts, four eyes, four legs, four arms, and two sets of reproductive organs???

    Call the medical journals! Your body is a scientific discovery!

    But maybe, you are a pregnant woman, and that “thing” inside you feels the same way about her body…only she isn’t demanding a “right” to choose to murder you in order to protect HER body from YOUR oppression, YOUR backwards mindset, and YOUR political will…”

  • Welcome_2_the_Future

    Point 1. EVERYONE in this country agrees an unborn fetus is a life. That is why Scott Peterson is sitting on DEATH ROW for DOUBLE HOMICIDE for the killing of his wife Lacy and HER UNBORN FETUS. I don’t see anyone out there in front of the jail marching in protest of that conviction.

    Point 2. Since mother’s getting abortions are not convicted of homicide for doing the same thing Scott Peterson did, then they are de facto EXEMPTED under current law from being charged with the crime of Homicide as a result of them ending the life of a fetus inside of them.

    Therefore, ABORTION is a case of exempted murder of a fetus which is otherwise an offense that brings with it the charge of murder, and a death sentence, without the exemption that is afforded to a woman and a doctor.

    Other instances of exempted murder are: a police officer killing an armed criminal. a person using self defense of deadly force against deadly force. a person in the Army that kills an enemy combatant. an executioner carrying out the execution of a prisoner sentenced to death in the US penal system.

    So, the people dying under these exempted murder examples are:
    an armed criminal
    a person using deadly force to harm a person
    an enemy combatant in a war trying to kill a US serviceman
    a person convicted of killing another person and sentenced to death
    a baby that is completely vulnerable and reliant on people to take care of it

    which one of these just doesn’t belong?

  • Clare_TheCat

    People have different views, but understand: pro-choice is NOT pro-abortion.

  • kayla n

    If it is an inconvience to have children, maybe you shouldnt be having sex. Or maybe try different forms of birthcontrol. If you become pregnant with a HUMAN BEING someone that will grow to be a doctor, or a teacher, someone that will laugh, cry, and experience life the same ways that you do, how is that the same as a parasite? How can you just nonchalantly kill someone? There are better options. Why not give the baby up for adoption? You can make someone incredibly happy by giving them something they cant have instead of throwing it away.
    .

  • https://twitter.com/atheist_in_nc Heisenberg

    The real question is “At what point does an embryo or a fetus become a person?” A religious person will argue that there is some sort of supernatural “soul” created at the moment of conception (or perhaps before), and that abortion denies that soul their opportunity for life. However, there is zero evidence for this; it’s purely mythological.

    As we enter this age of cloning, it’s becoming increasingly important that we define what constitutes being a person. We are becoming able to construct replacement body parts at will; and yet, the embryo is similarly just a blob of cells. It’s on its way to becoming something, but it isn’t that something yet.

    I would argue that personhood should be linked to brain development. It’s the only measure which makes any sense. It’s not until week 24 that the brain of the fetus begins to regulate its own body functions. I would argue for that reason that abortion should not be restricted in the first two trimesters.

    I’ll also throw out an external consideration for abortion, and why women should have more access to it, not less: population growth. In the year 1800, the human population passed the 1 billion milestone. 127 years later, we hit 2 billion. 33 years after that, we hit 3 billion. 14 years after that, we hit 4 billion. 13 years after that, we hit 5 billion. 12 years after that, we hit 6 billion. 12 years after that, we hit 7 billion. Resource scarcity is becoming an increasing problem, and its most acute in the third world, where women have very little access to contraception, abortion, and family planning resources. And having too many children is burdening those families, who cannot break out of the cycle of poverty.

    Abortion is a necessary tool for a modern society.

  • NSL

    I just feel like I should point out that Rachel’s argument is more than forty years old….

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_Defense_of_Abortion

  • G Sams

    Abortion is murder, plain and simple. Our law states when a person’s heart stops beating they are dead if the heart beat stops due to an action of another it is murder. Point: if life ceases to exist when a heart stops beating, then in turn life begins when a heart starts beating. The fact that life support (mother) is necessary for the first 9 months is no different than having a person on life support to prolong their life before death. So many people who cannot have children, want children. A friend of mine adopted a pair of siblings from overseas, when I ask why they didn’t adopt from American he said “red tape” . It was easier and less costly to adopt outside the U.S. than inside……sad!

    • MrEFQ

      “if the heart beat stops due to an action of another it is murder”
      You might want to learn what murder means. Because you are clearly ignorant.

  • Karebear

    The problem with the abortion debate as that both sides are arguing in a different context. The fact of the matter is, the only question that needs to be answered in order to resolve the abortion debate is whether or not a fetus is as important as a born baby or not (or perhaps if there is a point in the development of a fetus where it becomes so, and what point?).

    Pro-choicers are making their arguments in the context that a fetus is as morally significant as an extra pinky toe. Sure, they understand that fetuses eventually become persons, but they believe until the baby is born, or at least until it’s in a late stage of fetal development, it is as immoral to terminate the life of a fetus as it is to remove a cyst. On the other side, pro-lifers believe that terminating the life of a fetus is exactly as immoral as terminating the life of a newborn. This is what needs to be sorted out, and the problem is, at the current state of knowledge, this is a philosophical question at best.

    Some people believe there are absolute morals handed down by a higher power that we must discover and abide by…. some people believe morals are subjective and decided by the current society… some people believe morals are obvious things that result from natural selection. How do we figure out which? I have no idea what is correct, I BELIEVE that after conception, human life is human life no matter what stage of development or whether or not the life can only be sustained inside a womb. I BELIEVE fetuses are “persons” just as much as newborns. My OPINION is that until its figured out, the benefit of the doubt should go to the fetus, just in case. But who knows?

    It’s not doing anybody any good ignoring the reality of the debate. Most pro-lifers are not anti-women religious zealots like many would like to believe and most pro-choicers are not anti-religion irresponsible sex addicts as many would like to believe. Just some people believe abortion is morally the same as murdering a child, and some people think abortion is as immoral as using a condom, it’s just preventing the life from happening, not ending it. Because I think we can all agree that if “truly” a fetus is a “person,” then all the pro-choice arguments fade a way and nobody would be okay with abortion, since it would be murder after all… and if a fetus is “truly” NOT a “person,” and is instead just a blob of cells with no soul, then there is no reason to disallow abortions.

    So let’s try and figure out what this all means. What are (non-religious, non-biblical) arguments for whether or not a fetus should have the same status of importance as a newborn? (I feel like at this stage of the game, both sides will have valid arguments, but with time and more knowledge maybe this will become more clear?) What should we assume for now? And if we are to assume that abortion is okay, what do we tell the population of people that honestly believe it is murder?

    In this way, it’s somewhat like female circumcision, child marriage, or other practices deemed moral by the practicing culture/religion but seen as a HUGE, obvious moral injustice to outsiders. How do we know when something is a cultural/religious freedom and not a moral atrocity that needs remedying? I am pro-life, but I also see abortion as a huge moral gray area so I don’t judge people who decide to take that route…. but to those that are more vehement in their position, how could anyone convince them that abortion is anything other than the mass murder of children? You definitely aren’t going to convince them with speeches about bodily autonomy.

    To make a long story even longer, the abortion debate needs to stop being about bodily autonomy and the rights of women to choose what to do with their bodies. Nobody is saying they don’t have those things. The debate needs to be about figuring out what a fetus really is.

    • Body image vs health??

      I feel you are honestly looking for an answer and the answer IS the pregnant person. It isn’t about the fetus at all. Your response was very well worded and understanding of different opinions. But, what it really comes down to is that pro lifers argue that the fetus (whether it’s a person or not) is worth more than the woman’s right to her uterus. If you look at another of my arguments, I say if we could remove a fetus from the woman’s body, it would be ideal. It doesn’t work that way, unfortunately. She is just as important as the fetus. Her personhood and decisions about her uterus are just as important as the fetus. We cannot ignore her in the abortion debate. That would he disingenuous.

      • Karebear

        I do agree that a woman is just as important as the fetus and we shouldn’t ignore her, but I disagree about the right to her uterus (in the case that a fetus is like a child).

        Again, if a fetus is NOT an important life, then it doesn’t matter and a woman would definitely have a right to her uterus over the non-important fetus. But if it is important, then the life of a fetus would have just as much precedence over a woman’s uterus as a child’s life would if the child relied on the uterus for its wellbeing . The decision of what to do with your uterus comes before you knowingly engage in an act where a likely consequence is pregnancy. Even if you take birth control, everyone knows that a lot of people get pregnant anyway. So in my opinion, a woman foregoes her right to her uterus by deciding to have sex. She took the risk. The fetus had no say and so it’s not his/her fault. In a similar argument as was made in the article, we can’t tell a woman she has the right to certain things if they are detrimental to a baby, so we can’t say she has a right to her uterus if a fetus is determined to be as important as a baby either.

        If I have a 100 dollar bill but then I bet it in a game of cards, I no longer have the right to use that 100 dollar bill as I choose if I lose. Not a perfect analogy, but you get what I mean. If a woman and her fetus are equally important lives, then you can’t allow for the murder of a child because the woman took a gamble with her uterus. But this is all my opinion I suppose. And this all goes back to my previous post, we need to figure out the importance of a fetus’ life

        On another note, the present state of the debate is clearly NOT one sided. It’s pretty divided and leaning towards pro-choice and allowing for abortions. I don’t think that pro-lifers need to give up their fight, but I think they need to take a step back for a while and try to concentrate on winning what they can. There are things that can still be done to: help protect pregnant minors, helping people make the right decision (for themselves) without telling them they are going to hell for considering an abortion, the safety of clinics, helping women who are only aborting because of financial issues, helping poor women have access to birth control and family planning, prohibiting late-term abortions, promoting adoption and making adoption a more efficient process (and to open up a different can of worms, make it easier/allow for LGBT people to adopt!), funding research on ways to save the fetus early on in pregnancy (if you could remove the fetus from a body without ending its life, that would be huge). Reducing abortions and increasing its safety seem to me to be much more realistic and attainable goals than just wasting a ton of money trying to make it illegal and failing. Abstinence education and woman shaming isn’t helping, either.

  • Philip

    Real simple solution. If you’re too lazy to care for that you conceived while having unprotected sex. Then don’t do it. Think of it this way, condoms are a lot cheaper than diapers. Which would you rather buy

    • https://twitter.com/atheist_in_nc Heisenberg

      Conservatives don’t want more access to contraception. Conservative Catholics are against contraception entirely. Fiscal conservatives don’t want your health insurance paying for contraception. Social conservatives don’t want schools distributing condoms.

      If conservatives would change their stance against contraception, they could drop the number of abortions in this country dramatically.

      • JohnL1313

        “Access” to contraception is a red-herring and a false narrative.

        If you want birth control then fine, buy it yourself, as much as you want, and don’t force me to buy it for you. Take responsibility for your own actions and don’t force others to bear the brunt of your bad decisions. Freedom and liberty defined. Hey, even the baby gets liberty in this instead of a forceps and a suction hose jammed into the back of her skull.

  • John Stebelton

    Dear brother, I know you probably caught off guard

    By that seed in her stomach, so your heart ache’s hard

    Feeling trapped, like prisoners behind those bars

    The hands been dealt, but you don’t wanna take those cards

    Homie stop, and think about the choice

    That baby in her womb, she ain’t really got a voice

    So she really needs her daddy, to love her and rejoice

    She’s a blessing from the Lord, she don’t need to be destroyed

    Don’t abandon her mama, love her and support her

    She’s in pain now too, she needs someone there for her

    But don’t let her hurt your baby girl, alive in the womb

    ‘Cause homie you’ll be looking in her eyes pretty soon,

    Hey don’t get me wrong, look I agree that we should give women rights

    But that goes for unborn women too, give them life!

    Hook

    Verse 3:

    Dear friends, I know this probably hurts

    For those of you who wish you would have gave that baby birth

    But it’s too late now, ‘cause your child ain’t around

    I know it hurts to your core, that guilt is weighing you down

    But I’ve got Good News and some healing for your hurts

    Christ Jesus came, He descended to the Earth

    But He ain’t come for good people or even the just

    He came into the world just for sinners like us

    So yeah He’s really grieved when we take a baby’s life

    ‘Cause He made them, but He came to save us from our plight

    He came shining light that He could save us from our night

    He erases all the shame, homie He can make us right

    Confess it and believe in the One who paid your cost

    He died in your place, there’s forgiveness at the cross, He can give us life

  • Sven

    Abortion and gays just another form of population control. Ain’t that a good thing? Or do you think Monsanto will feed everyone and there will be enough trees to breathe air in 50 years?

  • Tiffany

    A person is a person no matter how small. A fetus or baby is not an “it” I can’t stand it when people refree to them like that. I’m sure we can agree that yes a baby is attached to his or her mother but, a mother doesn’t make their heart beat, or she doesn’t make the brain develop and so on. That’s one of the wonders of our living god. Not every pregnant woman has difficulties when they’re pregnant. Not every pregnancy is meant to put a woman on her death bed. Yes she has a right to her body, but why must it be abortion? There is the wonderful option of adoption, their are SO many couples who wish to conceive but they can’t. The 2/3 of woman could put the baby up for adoption instead of having an abortion. I’ve had my difficult days being pregnant, but when she moves, has the hiccups, when we get to hear her heart beat and move to the sound of a loved ones voice or music. It doesn’t make her less of a human, they know so much more than people think. If I didn’t want a child (I will always want my children) I would carry them, give birth to them and find a family who would love them.

  • Cassi

    You guys make it sound so easy, get pregnant in high school or college, have the child, and put it up for adoption. Half the time these kids are in the system for years upon years and live terrible lives. Then you have all the scrutiny and judgements the pregnant woman goes through during those 9 months, all because the people judging her didn’t give her a choice. Sure people should be more responsible, but sometimes birth control doesn’t work, or a condom breaks, it happens. The whole idea behind pro choice is having your own say, so sure you can go ahead and have this baby and do you, however, let other people make their own choice and have an abortion if necessary. By keeping pro choice why can’t everyone be happy. I don’t know you, why the hell do you have any say in what I choose to do with my body.

  • Thomas

    Matt Walsh’s response is very logical and thorough. The one thing I think the young miss was going for with the “waking up in a hospital one day with a stranger.” was something along the lines of an analogy to rape. Someone gets drugged, and wakes up the next day with something they had no deliberate part in making living off of them.

    And that specific kind of case probably deserves another response from Matt, because his 10-point argument makes the case and relies on the relationship of a culpable mother and her innocent child for the child’s existence. If the mother was not complicit in the act, that changes the relationship.

    That being said – abortions for the case of rape number somewhere around 2%. It is a very rare event by comparison, and rules should not be made off of minor exceptions. The young miss has a point, or at least has not been disprove yet, in the case of rape. However considering that she applies this to -all- abortion, it can be said she has had her argument thoroughly dismantled. Her position is not necessarily wrong, but she’ll need to find a consistent justification of it that stands up better to scrutiny.

  • mal

    One of the best pro-life arguments I’ve seen! To add to some of the comments about what makes a human and a person the same is this…A fetus has human DNA in this DNA is everything about that person, their eye, skin, and hair color and all of their physical and emotional traits. The fetus is a unique human being that will never be duplicated. That fetus has the potential to grow into a fully developed baby. So you are not just killing a fetus you are killing that baby to be. Even though a fetus can’t think or see or hear does not mean that it isn’t a human.

  • Cachinscythe

    Sorry, Matt, but I must respectfully disagree with your assertions and show how I think you’re at least partially on a crusade to justify your own viewpoint. You make good arguments–particularly against the hypothetical presented by the woman–but you’re off base on a few things here.

    “According to bodily autonomy, a mother could not be judged harshly for
    smoking, drinking, doing coke, and going skydiving (hopefully not all in
    the same day) while 6 months pregnant. If you really believe that a
    woman’s body is autonomous — that she has absolute jurisdiction over it —
    then you must defend a mother who does things that could
    seriously harm her unborn child, even if she hasn’t chosen to abort it…”

    No, there is nothing saying she cannot be judged harshly, and people like that ARE judged harshly by PLENTY of pro-choice people, even when they DO decide to abort. What IS said is that legally she has the right to do that, no matter how morally despicable we find it. There is a BIG difference between defending a person who makes awful choices and defending that person’s RIGHT to MAKE those choices. I do not agree with pregnant women drinking or doing drugs or smoking or skydiving or whatever, but it’s HER body and I can’t dictate what she does with it. You can dislike your inability to tell a woman she can’t drink while pregnant all you like, but legally that’s her right, and nothing short of changing the law will fix that.

    “The bodily autonomy argument is flawed because it requires you to support abortion at every stage of development.”

    Actually, no, it doesn’t. You’re lumping all pro-choice people into the same bag of “you all believe a fetus is not a living being at all.” Bodily autonomy goes both ways. That’s why people such as myself have been arguing the cutoff point should be when brain function starts. Once brain function starts, a reasonable scientific argument can be made that the fetus is alive, and at that point an abortion ends up infringing on the rights of the now SCIENTIFICALLY ALIVE child. Since that child is now alive, he has rights to bodily autonomy as well, even if technically he isn’t autonomous yet. Ergo, no, we do NOT have to support abortion at all times because of your extreme interpretation of the “bodily autonomy” argument; only up to the point where legally a child is considered “alive.”

    “Children, at any age, create profound demands on their parents’ bodies.
    Whether it’s waking up in the middle of the night for the crying baby,
    working long hours to pay for their food and clothing, carrying them
    around when they cannot walk, staying home when you’d like to go out,
    going out (to bring them to the doctor, or school, or soccer practice)
    when you’d like to stay in, etc, etc, etc, and so forth. An argument for
    absolute bodily autonomy means that it can’t be illegal, or considered
    immoral, for a parent to decline to do any of these things, so long as
    their decision was made in the name of bodily autonomy.”

    Matt, there are two problems with this argument. The first is that it assumes there is no difference between “direct” and “indirect.” Pregnancy puts DIRECT physical demands on a woman’s body, whereas caring for the child after its born puts INDIRECT physical demands on the body. To argue these two things are exactly the same is like saying cigarettes damage the body in the same way too much TV does. Cigarettes cause DIRECT PHYSICAL HARM to a person’s body, whereas too much TV will only cause physical harm if it’s combined with a lack of physical activity and proper self-care.
    Second, people ignore their responsibilities to their children in the name of bodily autonomy all the time. It’s called adoption, something pro-lifers like to spend a lot of time arguing as an alternative to abortion. Why did that option suddenly disappear? And that’s to say nothing of bad parenting, which last I checked the state did not have the resources to police and stop, nor do they have the RIGHT to do that except in the case of child services. Bad parenting is a CLEAR example of bodily autonomy at the expense of children that goes unchecked all the time. It’s terrible, but it’s reality.

    “Bodily autonomy justifies public masturbation”

    Okay, Matt, this is a ridiculous misfire, and I think you know that. It’s a ridiculous topic change that seems to be screaming bloody murder over something unrelated in the name of Christian ideals. Perhaps bodily autonomy DOES justify actions such as these, but what you don’t seem to understand is that arguing for bodily autonomy does not mean you argue AGAINST the societal or physical consequences of the actions you take on its behalf. If a woman decides to have an abortion in a pro-life community, that is her right, but there is nothing saying the public cannot shun her or degrade her as a human being for doing so. Whether that is “moral” or “fair” is up for debate, but there is no law saying people cannot shun another individual except perhaps in instances of race or sexual orientation. On the same hand, a person can choose to masturbate in public if s/he wants, and they can use the bodily autonomy argument to justify it, but they will still have to deal with the ridicule that comes with such actions by community members, and to be fair, probably a public indecency charge as well.
    This is not an argument over whether a human being should have to suffer the consequences of his/her actions; it is an argument over whether human beings have choices under specific circumstances. The consequences are merely a side effect. And yes, that goes for whether to get an abortion as well.

    “Absolute bodily autonomy does not exist”

    While I think you might be oversimplifying both the concept of bodily autonomy and the people who argue for it, I must admit that this is a fairly strong argument that I can (mostly) agree with, probably the strongest of your latter five arguments. Though I do feel it can easily be used to say we as human beings aren’t individuals at all–and as such have no rights–that is probably an extreme interpretation of what you’re saying, and the basis of your argument is solid.

    I’m not trying to be rude here. In fact, I apologize if the length of this response bothered you. I’m not a pro-choice individual. Abortion is one of those topics where I still haven’t completely nailed down where I stand. I’m just showing how, logically, there are flaws in your arguments, as there are in ALL arguments. And though you apparently hear it a lot, I DO think you’re oversimplifying a complex issue. However, I’m hardly one to talk given some of my philosophical stances, so I can tolerate some oversimplification. If you believe life starts at conception, I can respect that. I maintain it starts at brain function–which I believe happens two or three months after conception–but we’re all entitled to our opinions.

    Thanks for the article. It is definitely thought-provoking. :)

  • GEIxBattleRifle

    The best argument for abortion was debunked? LOL not really as there are FAR more better arguments then the bodily autonomy one. Pro Choicers go to this website and arm yourself and do comment in the comment section and any pro lifer is welcome as well to challenge the site owner.

  • GEIxBattleRifle

    The best argument for abortion was debunked? LOL not really as there are FAR more better arguments then the bodily autonomy one. Pro Choicers go to this website and arm yourself and do comment in the comment section and any pro lifer is welcome as well to challenge the site owner.

    http://fightforsense.wordpress.com/

  • Kathi

    I am pro-life but after reading #10, “…clearly I cannot choose the wine in front of you…”, lol.

    • GEIxBattleRifle

      Read the whole site and comment in the section

      • Kathi

        ? Not sure what you mean. I read the whole article and commented in the section pertaining to the article.. meant as a light-hearted nod to the author’s “dizzying intellect”.

    • Guest

      lol nice.

  • http://www.markadrake.com/ Mark Drake

    I think the “best argument for abortion” is simply asking what right do you have to STOP someone else from doing it. If you are not a participant in the creation of the child then your opinion is worth nothing. If the act does not threaten your own life or affect you in any way, other than “it offends your moral senses”, then just take a breather and realize that out of all the things that happen in this world – whether they are good or bad – doesn’t need your approval or judgement. If there is some greater power, they’ll take care of all the judging. You go on and be yourself, and if you don’t like abortion then don’t have an abortion. That’s a pretty simple concept.

    • http://dougjoseph.net Doug Joseph

      By that logic, police or decent citizens cannot and ought not stop murder. They have no right. Their opinion, and that of society that makes laws, is worth nothing. If the murder does not threaten our own life or affect us… Oh, wait, murder does affect us all, whether it happens in the womb, just outside it, or on the street somewhere. And standing by and doing nothing, affects us all too. This is not about judging or approval. It is about right and wrong. The greater power will certainly hold both accountable in the end: the murderers and those who could have and should have opposed the murders, but did not. “Don’t like murder? Then don’t commit murder.” Yeah, right. Simple concept, but very wrong.

      • http://www.markadrake.com/ Mark Drake

        Murder affects someone else – you said that yourself. Abortion affects the parents. You have no business getting involved and telling someone they can or cannot. That’s a decision that we as a society should only step in to protect the mother or fathers right when they disagree about the decision.

        Since you already stated murder affects other people, I don’t need to defend anything else I said. The only time we as a society should ever get involved in policing people is when there are disagreements between two or more parties that affects the rest of us. And since in typing this on an iPhone I’ll drop this conversation right here.

      • http://www.markadrake.com/ Mark Drake

        Actually no I won’t because I don’t know how to interpret “the higher power will hold both accountable”. Are you implying that the higher power will be passing a guilty judgement? I would hope that you most certainly did not mean to tell me that you know exactly how the higher power thinks and imply that he should do something about it. I’m sure what you meant was to agree with me – and that all judging will be left up to his discretion.

    • tigalily

      Don’t even try and rationalize with these Pro-Birthers…they are going to whip out analogies that are hogwash.

      Thank you for being a forgiving and understanding person.

    • gpearl

      Your rights stop when they affect another life. Therefore, that person should be stopped from affecting another life. Not being a participant does not negate my right to help the unborn baby. What logic! If it doesn’t concern me, stay out of it?? Let the murder continue since I have no skin in the game? Murder offends my moral senses. If you were being attacked and your life was in danger, I would not walk away and say, well, it doesn’t concern me. Murdering parents have got to be stopped. People who claim ignorance are dangerous. 55 million little lives have been lost, because people turned their heads.

      • http://www.markadrake.com/ Mark Drake

        I don’t agree with your point of view on the subject at all. First you compare abortion to murder, if it was murder it would be called murder. But even two murders aren’t the same – there are elements and circumstances that need to be weighed before ‘murder’ can be deemed an appropriate and socially acceptable, or unacceptable, act. So from this point on please only compare apples to apples – meaning that 99% of the circumstances and elements are exactly the same.

        I don’t agree that you have the right to stop a murder unless the act is against unwilling participants. If two people are that upset about things and decide to act that way they need to deal with the consequences. And I don’t agree we as a society should throw everyone in jail for every offense. Two people get into a scuffle and one dies – that’s the consequence of your action. Take responsibility for them. Now if the circumstances say that one was unwilling to take it that far – that’s different and there should be justice. Otherwise – stop pushing you morality on other people.

        And if a woman is raped she shouldn’t have to raise it, bond with it, if she doesn’t want to. Let’s give you a vagina and have you experience a rape that gets you pregnant. Let’s have you develop both a physical and emotional, motherly bond to a baby – a product from a violent moment in your life. As you deal with the trama you’ve experienced and raising the baby born from it I’d love to read your opinions and compare them to the one you’ve shared today.

        • gpearl

          Again, the argument always uses the extreme as an example. Take away the rape, and health of the mother, then you have no argument. You and I both know the babies are destroyed for convenience and threats to lifestyles. Yet, a liberal will always bring up a case which does not even represent 1% of the abortions as their major argument.

          Pushing my morals on you is never the intent, yet, a person who believes in destroying another life always pushes their morals on the baby’s life. There is obviously nobody standing up for the defenseless baby, shamelessly, so we have to set morality issues in play to make it illegal to stop the senseless pounding in the bedroom and creating a life, and then destroying it, and heading out to the bar again.

          Two grown people who engage in a fight is again, no fair comparison to a baby who has no intention of engaging in combat with an adult with scissors and you know this. Extremes are the only argument in this case. This rids the guilt you have and justifies the painful deaths and chance of life. Even a rape victim can give the baby up for adoption. It’s not the baby’s fault the mother was raped and the father was a criminal.

          A terrible, argument you have, imposing your moral values on what used to be a civilized society. But this is a good insight into how people justify a murder in their minds. It seems, moral to them, somehow.

          • http://www.markadrake.com/ Mark Drake

            It doesn’t have to be extreme. Let’s say there are two people, Adam and Eve, and they have sex, and Eve gets pregnant. Adam and Eve have circumstances in which raising a baby isn’t appropriate for them. Eve has an abortion.

            What right do you have to impose judgement on these people? You aren’t affected by what they’ve done in any way. Stop worrying because your morals, your ego, your since of pride – they haven’t any blemishes on them. You’ve done nothing wrong. They’ve done nothing wrong to you. Leave Adam and Eve alone. You, my friend, are blind to your own selfishness. You don’t want them to have an abortion because abortion makes you feel bad. You want to feel good. You apparently want everyone to think and act like you do.

            The murder wasn’t a comparison, it was an analogy to what I’m describing here – which is if it doesn’t affect you IN ANY WAY then just stop meddling. Adam and Eve, or Adrianne and Eve – these people can have as many abortions as they like. They can do it for sport. Maybe one day they will hold the world record for abortions.And you my friend will hold the record for holding the longest argument that wasn’t won.

          • gpearl

            You haven’t stated Adam and Eve’s circumstances. No babysitters available? Can’t think of a name for the baby? They don’t like getting up at night and feeding the baby? Or is it something more extreme like Eve may die if she gives birth? Or did a gorilla rape her and they can’t stand to look at an ape child the rest of their life.

            No circumstances stated…I have the right to impose judgement on anybody I choose. Judgement is an opinion and I do have a right.

            Do I go and force them to have the baby? No. Can I impose laws that prevent murder of another individual? Yes. I will leave Adam and Eve alone until their freedom imposes on another life. At that point, they have crossed the line. So, they won’t be left alone to destroy human lives just because it’s “none of my business.”

            The murder you stated was meant to be a comparison and a ludicrous one at that. But once called out, all of a sudden, its an analogy that has nothing to do with what we were discussing.

            Your justification of murder gets weaker and more appalling with each statement. You think we should turn our heads and allow a mother to destroy her child’s life because it’s her business and that’s a private matter. I have never looked into the mind of a murderer before, but this is how they must justify the murder, It’s Adam and Eve so leave them alone, they intend to destroy a life, but it’s their little life that was created, so only they get to destroy it. Not a shred of logic in your support for a murderer .

    • Mita Pogue

      Mark, It’s kind of funny that you call it a “child’ and then in the next breath act like they shouldn’t be protected from being killed at the hands of some mothers and abortionists.

      Can you please tell me when in the course of a pregnancy abortion is either acceptable or unacceptable? And keeping this in mind, what are acceptable reasons for abortion. And why. Thanks.

      • Mark

        Hi Mita, the answer you seek is a paradox, and I feel you’ll be disappointed no matter what I say to you. My answer to your questions is “it’s relative”. It’s relative to the pregnant mother, it’s relative to the father, and it’s relative to the circumstances in which the pregnancy occurred – not ignoring the emotional and physical complications that occurred from the circumstance and the ones to follow.

        So the answer is – it’s relative in every single case.

  • Faith Springs

    What saddens me is that those who get pregnant and abort the child destroy every chance of happiness, love, excitement, growth, knowledge, friendship, etc. that child could ever have simply because it’s inconvenience. It’s more than a life, it’s a lifetime of experiences and future husbands and wives and mothers and fathers and friends that you’re aborting.
    For your convenience.
    If you would have been aborted, none of the [restate above list] experiences that you’ve ever had would exist. Know that memory you think about all the time? Never happened. That spouse or significant other you love? They don’t know you exist (rather, don’t exist), or perhaps they don’t exist because they had been aborted. The driving force of your life? Doesn’t matter, you don’t exist.
    But at least your mom didn’t have to carry you for nine months. How terrible that would have been.

    • tigalily

      My mom had an abortion and then a couple of years later had me.

      Are you saying I don’t deserve to live? I wouldn’t be here if my mom didn’t have that abortion.

      • Faith Springs

        Does it not logically work that she could have had both children?

        • tigalily

          No that’s not how the world works.

          To be specific (RH+/RH-) I am not going to explain it to a Pro-Birther.

          You change one thing now and it alters the entire future.

          Your answer has everything BUT logic.

          So you are saying I don’t deserve to be born?

          • Guest

            Can you guarantee that you would/wouldn’t have never been born? Or for that matter that it would have even been you? Wasting your time with what could have been is not reasonable. You can’t argue what you can’t really know

          • tigalily

            Do you know what Rh-/Rh+ is ?

            Because of this my mom had her tubes tied. So yes I can 100% guarantee I would not be here.

          • Mita Pogue

            My daughter has RH negative blood… They have shots for that now.

          • a.k

            the irony of this: “So you are saying I don’t deserve to be born?”

          • tigalily

            There is no irony.

            If she had’t had that abortion I wouldn’t be alive.

            She made the CHOICE to carry me to term.

            By saying she should have had that other pregnancy is like saying I don’t deserve to live.

            And I am a breathing independent person.

            The point is women who have abortions also end up being mother’s when they are ready.

            We are not pro-abortion.

          • Guest

            Why did the first baby not have the same opportunity as you did? Why did one of the two of you have to die? Why couldn’t you both be alive? Why couldn’t your dead sibling have the same chance you had?

    • https://twitter.com/atheist_in_nc Heisenberg

      For that matter, the two million eggs the woman carries all represents potential people who will never have a chance at happiness, love, excitement, growth, knowledge, and friendship.

      • Mita Pogue

        No, actually the eggs a woman carries are just eggs until they are fertilized. Like a chicken egg. Chickens don’t need a rooster to lay eggs. They just lay them anyway. It’s science. And it’s breakfast in my house. The chicken egg, not the other…

        • https://twitter.com/atheist_in_nc Heisenberg

          Eggs are the foundation of creating a human. It’s just a blob of cells that has a long way to go through development to actually become a person.

          Unless you think something “magical” happens when the zygote is created. It’s just all biological processes.

  • tigalily

    Hmm. Well I’ll still be doing what I want with my body. People can smoke in front of their live children and give them 2nd hand lung cancer, people can drink excessively and neglect their live children, people cannot adequately provide for their children. If they can do that to a born child I can abort a 6 week embryo. You’re right just because it’s legal doesn’t make it right. But heh, crime/rape/child molestation still happen with laws agains it. Which means women will still abort.

    It’ll become an era where women won’t go to the Dr’s. They won’t seek help. They’ll do what they have to, like they were doing before Roe.

  • Jon Goff

    Well said, but you missed an important point. What of the baby’s bodily autonomy, the right for it to continue to develop, metabolize nutrients, to change, grow… it’s unique genetic profile means that it isn’t a part of the mother’s body but a unique individual being, whose bodily autonomy ought to be as sacrosanct as the mother’s, more so.

  • Jacob

    If you don’t want a kid, don’t have sex. IT’S SIMPLE! People are stupid and turn sex into a game or something to do for fun when their parents aren’t around, and then they don’t want to deal with the repercussions. Thats why if you wait until your married to have sex and don’t do things backwards like the rest of the world, then you won’t end up with a child at the wrong time. By backwards I mean dating a person, moving in with them, and having sex before you get married rather than doing things correctly and responsibly dating, getting married, moving in together, and then fooling around. If you go with the second option, at least if you get pregnant and it’s a surprise, you’ll be somewhat more ready for it than if you do things backwards. Also some people say “But what if a girl gets pregnant while she is in high school, and there would be no one to take care of the baby. It could ruin her life.” In that situation she ruined her own life because you shouldn’t even be having sex if your under 18, and if she’s pregnant she should go through the whole nine months then put the child up for adoption if she can’t take care of it. There are plenty of families who want children, who are not capable and would take that child in a heart beat. Just because you are irresponsible and can’t control your hormones doesn’t give you the right to say “This child’s an inconvenience so I’ll just take the easy way out and kill it!” Let’s say i forgot to do my homework one day, and I go to school knowing that I’m gonna get in trouble with my teacher. Should I just go into school and shoot the teacher? Why not? Im gonna get in trouble and she’s inconveniencing me for my own irresponsibility so I should just kill her right? It sounds stupid but that’s exactly how people look at abortion.

    • tigalily

      I’ll tell my fiance that (we are 25). What’s your address so he can come and punch you?

  • cyndi172003
  • jeff4

    My wife has an IUD. Should these be illegal because they cause abortions? What can the USA and the conservatives help us do to save the millions and millions of innocent lives lost when fertilized eggs do not implant in the uterus or are rejected by the mother? Should we prosecute these women whose bodies do not allow implantation??!! I read the other day that over 70% of all fertilized eggs do not implant properly or are rejected. This is the unseen holocaust. Please help.

    • vforba

      It’s the same with the birth control pill. They make the uterus uninhabitable. But women still take it.

    • gpearl

      Nobody is prosecuting anybody, unless you’re a ruthless Abortion Doctor like Gosnell. The subject we are discussing is hiring a doctor to end the baby’s life because it interferes with the lifestyle of the parents. Liberals will always change this subject and inject an extreme, like “health of the mother” or in this case, an object that malfunctions. Conservatives are against ending the life that has already begun, not helping develop a better IUD. If the IUD malfunctions and ends a life, it should not be sold anymore, just like babycribs that trap baby’s and kill them. We need to stop straying from the issue. It’s a liberal tactic.

  • Jeremy Edwards

    Who cares. Abortion only affects the mother. It may be “murder” but it doesn’t affect anyone outside of the mother so I couldn’t be bothered. And since I’m an atheist I don’t think the she will burn in some eternal hellfire. To be logical about this, the world is already way too overpopulated. Scarce resources are already become more scarce. Thousands die every day from a lack of food, clean water, or lack of medical treatment. Protecting an unborn fetus means further harming the humanity that is already living. Either way you want to spin this you are condoning murder. I just choose the side that actually affects me. You know what would work? Contraceptives given freely to prevent pregnancy to begin with. Oh right, you’re against those as well.

  • Andreas Nettmayer

    It’s my experience that many teenagers and young adults fail to recognize that sex has led to pregnancy, as the author notes, literally billions of times. we seem to have a lot of unwanted pregnancies where the prospective parents are surprised and shocked that this could have happened. Whether our collective failure to make this point known is a failure in our education system specifically or in our culture more generally is unknown to me. The most direct action I can see to avoid the unwanted pregnancies in the first place is to increase teaching of biological sciences, make birth control so cheap and accessible no one can raise the argument of not being able to get it or afford it (condoms are available at most gas stations for very affordable prices), and finally tell people, especially young people, that if you don’t want to be parents with the person you’re sleeping with, you should probably refrain from sleeping with them.

  • Andreas Nettmayer

    I’ve lived half of my life in a Catholic European country. This country is rather rich, has nice things, and deep Catholic values. Except in ONE major area: Birth Control. Catholic teaching on birth control is widely ignored. Most young men and women are taught they shouldn’t have sex until they find the right person. Then, they are taught that sex makes you pregnant and you should, until you are ready, use both male condoms and female oral contraception or these 3 month shots that women get that I’m not even sure are available in the US. Anyway, most teenagers ignore the waiting to have sex advice, just like they do in the US, but most everyone gets birth control. Teenage pregnancy is very low. Unwanted pregnancies in general are super low. In case you were wondering, the country is Austria, which is richer than the USA now and about 80% catholic, with protestants and muslims making up the big minorities.

  • Prettymomma

    Hello my name is prettymomma and I am going to say that yes there are reasons that people should be able to have an abortion but if you have chosen to be a parent then that’s what you are no matter what. Now I have two children of my own that I chose to bring into this world my daughters father that I am no longer with had a daughter with another woman before ours the last two years that we were together she lived with us her mother couldn’t get her head on straight so she came to live with us. Now when her father and I had split up he wasn’t doing so well got back on his bills and lost his house so that little girl came to live with me. Now her dad and I were never married but she’s been in my life since she was 4 and she is now 9 she’s a part of my life she is one of my kids she’s been here with me since December of 2013. now this goes along the lines of giving up on your children like an abortion you just walked away from something that you brought into this world you chose to have this child and to be a parent and you have basically just give her up and abandoned her. that child did not choose to be brought into this world we as people choose whether or not we want to be a parent or not it shouldn’t be the choice of someone else its our choice and that child is depending on us to help them through their lives all of their life we teach them to walk to talk to eat to everything and you just give up itd be like killing your kid how can you justify something that cruel I’m raising a little girl thats not mine not because I don’t love her like she’s not mine but because her parents are just given up now how can you justify that. if I wasn’t there where would she be they may not have been killing her like an abortion would have but it’s killing her on the inside wondering why her parents just gave up on her.you cannot compare abortions to things like the life of another human being that was not brought in this world by you because yes you may feel for this person but this person is not your obligation to keep alive. But when a human being chooses to become a parent then it is your obligation to keep this being your bringing in this world safe and alive.

  • Andreas Nettmayer

    For conservatives to gain the moral high ground on abortion, I think they need to be the leaders in making unwanted pregnancy rare. Science based education that sex gets people pregnant and ubiquitous birth control are the way to go. That will reduce unwanted pregnancies and consequentially abortion dramatically. And, except in cases of rape, it will give Conservatives the ability to argue “you knew that was going to get you pregnant, now you must consider the life of the child.”

    • Mita Pogue

      I think conservatives have been working toward that goal for many, many years now.

  • Rebecca Eberhard

    “The unborn child is not, in any scientific or medical sense, an intruder or a parasite.”

    You need to look up the definition of a parasite then.

    Parasite: an organism that lives in or on another organism (its host) and benefits by deriving nutrients at the host’s expense. (Yes this was pulled from the google dictionary, but it’s still the same definition in biology textbooks and websters dictionary)

    I believe women have been known to loose their teeth due to the unborn child’s need for nutrients from it’s mother. Especially if the mother isn’t eating properly.

    However that’s just a definition error I noticed.

    By definition children are parasites until they are born, but so were all of us. It’s just how it is and it doesn’t mean we have any less right to live. Same goes for the unborn children. They don’t choose to be born in that manner. I’m against abortion myself.

    The only time I see abortion as acceptable is if it is the only way to save the mother.

    • brett77

      I’m pretty sure parasitism in a scientific/medical sense involves a difference in species.

    • Mita Pogue

      The term fetus is what the baby is called scientifically. No doctor or scientist would ever use the term parasite. And parasite is never used in connection with the reproduction process within a species.

      Here is the actual (full) definition of the term parasitism and how it effects living beings:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parasitism

      Also, the term fetus, which is only applied to developing vertebrates within the parameters of the functions of biological reproduction, whereas the term parasite is used not just for vertebrates but also for bacteria, viruses and invertebrates.

      Here is the actual and contextual definition of reproduction (which is not synonymous with parasitism):

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reproduction

      And also for fetus:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetus

      I hope this helps to define the terms properly.

  • 3rd day risen

    I’ve noticed that everybody who is for abortion has already been born. If only your parents could have been as smart as you are.

  • jeff4

    Hey who removed my comment???My wife has an IUD and i don’t like it. Shouldn’t they be illegal? I don’t want her killing those fertilized eggs without my permission!! They’re children!! Well, wait, i guess i’m not sure. Have the eggs implanted? Does the IUD allow implanting? If it DOES then she’s killing children. If it doesn’t then ok i guess. Wait, that’s not ok. My wife has fertilized eggs that her body is NOT ALLOWING TO IMPLANT. That’s a crime. That’s wrong to allow fertilized eggs not to implant. I think i read somewhere that 60-70% of all fertilized eggs do not implant correctly, that’s millions and millions of souls who are lost every year. MILLIONS PEOPLE, this is the new holocaust. WE HAVE TO FIND A WAY TO SAVE THESE EGGS AND STOP THE USE OF THE IUD!!!!!!! VFORBA Your comment was removed too? I agree with you. No birth control pills either, they’re killing babies too.

    • cyndi172003

      Some one removed my link to The Silent Scream too. You’re not the only one.

  • Jesse

    I am generally quite opinionated, but I have never taken the time to really form my own opinion on abortion. It has never affected me, and I have heard good arguments from both sides; leaving me somewhere in the middle.

    However, this article made me lean toward the pro-choice side. Some of the points really seemed to miss the original point brought up in Rachel’s argument and one in particular, number three, really seemed to argue against the point you were trying to make.

    • Mita Pogue

      How is point number three somehow not logical? Rachel’s argument was framing her point of view using some random stranger unrelated to her in the least, not to mention the fact that it was not only a hypothetical but also a real impossibility – when in real life has someone been ‘kidnapped’ to become the blood supply for a sick stranger in a hospital? This point was simply to illustrate how the hypothesis was unrelated to the real problem. First, a baby is not an unrelated stranger. Second, a baby is not a sick, unrelated stranger. Babies are generally healthy while in the womb, and they are ALWAYS related to you. Third, who (other than a mad scientist living in a state of delusion that he is God) would take someone and put them in the hospital and hook them up to another person with the full knowledge and cooperation of the other hospital staff without their consent? And forth, someone is watching too many sci-fi thrillers if any of that sounds like even a remotely plausible scenario.

      All of the points Rachel was positing were trying to justify the taking of an innocent person’s life. How old does a baby have to be before you will get off the fence (somewhere in the middle) to defend it’s life?

  • BradMcEvoy

    “Aside from cases of rape, a child is only conceived because two people intentionally committed a particular act” <- So is it the author's view that abortion is appropriate for cases of rape? If so, does it need to be proven in court?

    • Mita Pogue

      No, the author was only saying that the act of sexual intercourse is 99% of the time a purposeful act between 2 consenting adults. He was in no logical way condoning the act of abortion based on how the baby got there. Almost everyone who is an adult understands the act of sex could possibly result in pregnancy, and by voluntarily engaging in that act (knowing it’s possible results) implies CONSENT and acceptance of the results should a pregnancy arise from said act.

      Regardless of how the baby got there, knowingly murdering an innocent human being just because they happened to be in your womb from a forcible act of rape (through no cognizant act of their own and regardless of how that was accomplished) is simply one victim of a violent crime becoming the perpetrator of a violent act against another innocent human by killing them.

      • BradMcEvoy

        OK, so then if it doesnt matter if a pregnancy occurs deliberately or not then the author’s point 2 becomes irrelevant. That’s according to the author’s own argument.

        • Mita Pogue

          The source of the pregnancy has no bearing on the author’s point. Try again.

          • BradMcEvoy

            Mita, you might want to read the article again:

            “Aside from cases of rape, a child is only conceived because two people intentionally committed a particular act”

            So the author is saying that abortion is wrong when you caused the pregnancy deliberately. But then (according to you) the author believes that abortion is wrong even if you did not cause the abortion deliberately.

            You cant have it both ways. Just pick one.

  • The Watchman

    This lady, Rachel not only has a serious moral deficiency, but she also suffers from serious analytical shortcomings. Her entire analogy was completely flawed from beginning to end and you answered her correctly and precisely to the point. The point being, if one finds it impossible to distinguish a voluntary consensual act from being forced to become a host to a parasite, then that person also suffers from Liberalism, which by the way is a mental disorder in my book. Unless Rachel finds Christ, her continuation down the wide pathway is imminent. God bless you Matt, keep up the good work.

  • Mac

    How does one reach a pro-life stance in the first place?

    • Mita Pogue

      A pro-life stance is just following a natural biological function through to it’s natural conclusion – birth or natural death through miscarriage or the death of the mother. (Medical procedures necessary for saving a mother’s life when her life is in IMMINENT danger are taken into consideration in conjunction with the Hippocratic Oath to “Do No Harm”. These procedures are in actuality SO rare that they are obvious and acceptable when the mother is truly in danger of immediately losing her life as opposed to rendered inconvenienced or stretched mentally of financially for 18 years and 9 months.)

      Better question is how does one come to the place they can justify killing one’s own offspring or encouraging someone to do that? How is THAT a great idea that helps society?

      • Mac

        No, that is a brief description of pregnancy with the possibilities of complications with pro-life sentiment buried underneath.

        How do we get to a pro-life stance in the first place.

        • Mita Pogue

          I answered with additional commentary, but I was pretty clear. Can you answer my question? How do you arrive at a pro-choice stance? How do you justify the killing of a baby who is dependent on it’s mother for life? How do you convince a woman this is a justifiable act?

          • Mac

            “A pro-life stance is just following a natural biological function through to it’s [its] natural conclusion…” So, we may only justify the outcome of an action as being right, or to be followed, if it is a natural biological function. Anything which is un-natural is to be discarded, expunged, not allowed, treated with contempt, something that should be regulated, or made unlawful. Do conservatives follow this test through every aspect of their lives? Let us start with clothes….

            Clothes are neither natural or biological. Since they are not of these things we should be rid of them.
            Glasses to correct eye sight. Glass are neither natural or biological and therefore should be eliminated or made unlawful.

            Heart attacks…they are natural and biological (or failure of the biological system) and should be allowed to proceed to their natural conclusion without any interference.

            There are a lot of natural things which we don’t allow them to follow their natural biological function to the end. So I am not sure this is a good argument for one to be pro-life.

            As far as what I believe? That isn’t important. What I am more interested is how to get to a pro-life position. I am not sure nature is the way to go in that respect.

          • Mita Pogue

            None of these can be equated with the taking of an innocent life. When I said toolbox, I meant the things that humans naturally will do and add to their life experiences in order to survive, like clothing is a natural reaction to being cold or to protect vital private areas from exposure (for whatever reason)… not a toolbox with hammers and whatnot in it.

            The human propensity for discovery and for self-preservation includes using tools, hunting in groups or with with weapons to get an advantage over prey, planting seeds to make crops for food, etc.

            Children are part of the biological function of the human life cycle. Killing your child is not only NOT a natural part of the biological function of the human life cycle, it actually works against it because the natural bent is to survive and continue the cycle, not to circumvent it and certainly not to kill a helpless innocent. In the past when women aborted their babies it was based on superstition – such as such an act would please some goddess and there would be an abundant crop that year. We now know that to be untrue.

            If killing a child simply because it resides in your body (and your body is your own and no one has the right to intrude on your property) is okay with you, do you also believe that killing an infant is okay? Because it has to live with you in your house, and the house belongs to you, doesn’t it? Same with your car… can you ethically kill your own infant if it is traveling with you in your car? Your car is yours, right? Frankly, the infant is yours as well, and you should be able to do with your own property as you see fit, right?

            So if it is a possession issue (property rights) then no one should ever have an issue with shooting or destroying anyone or anything that comes onto your property if you don’t want them there.

            Either a baby is a parasite (intruder) or it’s a person. If it is a parasite that can be disposed of by the body’s owner at their whim, then why would it’s category change once it’s born if that same owner decides they don’t want it then?

            However if you consider a baby an individual before and after birth then you must treat it as an individual in either instance. A baby cannot be a parasite when it’s in it’s mother’s (host’s) womb one minute and then an individual with autonomy the second it emerges from the birth canal. It has to be either/or.

            Scientifically if you take the DNA from the clump of cells that is the zygote (the baby before it begins to form and develop organs) it can be identified as human. That’s because the zygote contains DNA derived from both parents, which provides all the genetic information necessary for forming a new individual. So it’s not some other animal or what some people like to call a parasite. A parasite is something the host doesn’t create through natural reproductive processes.

          • Mac

            Mita…look…either we are talking about natural processes as the measure or we aren’t. You may change the argument all you wish. If the rationale is “allowing a natural process to complete,” that “natural is the measure,” “all things natural are to be allow,” then the antithesis is also true, as implied by your comment: what is unnatural should be shunned. This isn’t obviously the case. So there must be some other moral code in operation.

            Language. First, a baby or a child is not what occupies the womb. It may be convenient to use these as they certainly add fire to the debate, but no. What occupies the womb is not a baby or a child. The baby or child does not appear until birth.

            Regardless, I am waiting for a clear path to the deciding thought which establishes a pro-life stance in first place. Is pro-life nothing more than a choice or is there some other defining principle?

      • Mac

        Well, it seems my reply was lost, deleted, not allowed, who knows. So I will try this again. Now, if the argument is “just following natural biological function to its (not it’s) natural conclusion…” as the basis of truth, the reason pro-life is the stance in the first place, then following natural biological functions with everything we do is the basis, motivation, etc of all of our choices. Let see if this is true…

        Are the manufacturing and wearing clothes a natural biological function? No. We must change what is natural into something manufactured. So, if we are to only follow natural biological functions, we must stop wearing clothes.

        Are wearing glasses a natural biological function? No, the making of glasses is not natural what so ever. In fact we are altering the natural biological function by wearing glasses.

        The problem with this stance is its selective application. It is only true when we want to be true otherwise we ignore it.

        To say this is every day language, we stating a preference and using this argument to bolster our preference. Is there something better?

        • Mita Pogue

          Wearing clothes and killing your unborn child… hmmm unnatural. I think if I’m going to pick something unnatural, I’ll stick with wearing clothes.

          You cannot equate utilizing additions to our toolboxes with the killing of a child. It is natural for people to be curious and to build, invent, use tools, explore. That is how we are made. We are not made to kill our unborn children.

          • Mac

            You’re right and I am not equating a toolbox to abortion. I am not sure why, but for some reason you are.

            I am testing your thought process which you claim leads to a pro-life position which is, “just following a natural biological function through to it’s natural conclusion…” We don’t always allow nature or biological functions to complete their natural course. We alter them, stop, and sometimes encourage them. So there must be another test or reason to drive someone to a pro-life position. Just because it is natural, doesn’t mean we should always allow a process. There is something else operating to make such decisions.

            BTW, this looks like a second thread, not sure how I did this but I apologize….

          • Mac

            I can see my last post has once again disappeared. What is the point of having a conversation when one’s remarks are continuously lost?

  • Kelly Dansby Quigley

    Bravo Mr, Walsh very good response.

  • LifeIsntAboutYou

    I would like to point out that just because you are pro-CHOICE, it does not mean that you are pro-abortion. It seems as though every single pro-life/anti-abortion person groups pro-choice and pro-abortion people together. I am very well AGAINST abortion, but that is my own personal opinion. I should not be making the decisions for other people who are not me. I am pro-choice because everyone should be able to make their own decisions in their own life, not because I believe abortions are the right choice (because I don’t believe that).

    Just because I like vanilla ice cream, doesn’t mean you are wrong for liking chocolate. Just because I want to keep my unborn child in my body, doesn’t mean that you are not wrong to not want to keep yours in your body.

  • LifeIsntAboutYou

    *Edit*
    I would like to point out that just because you are pro-CHOICE, it does not mean that you are pro-abortion. It seems as though every single pro-life/anti-abortion person groups pro-choice and pro-abortion people together. I am very well AGAINST abortion, but that is my own personal opinion. I should not be making the decisions for other people who are not me. I am pro-choice because everyone should be able to make their own decisions in their own life, not because I believe abortions are the right choice (because I don’t believe that).

    Just because I like vanilla ice cream, doesn’t mean you are wrong for liking chocolate. Just because I want to keep my unborn child in my body, doesn’t mean that you are wrong to not want to keep yours in your body.

    • Mita Pogue

      So if you believe abortion is wrong, what is your definition of wrong? Wrong like “Oh no, you can’t be serious you like chocolate ice cream that stuff is gross” – or “Oh my God you just murdered your baby what in the hell were you thinking?” ?

      Why exactly are you against abortion? What’s wrong with it? I don’t get how something that’s wrong can be right for someone else. Either it’s wrong or it’s right. You can’t think “Abortion is the murder of another human being so I would never do it” and “Well, I know abortion is murder but it’s okay if someone else perpetrates it on their children.” That is schizophrenic. Murder of an innocent is either always wrong (and therefore evil) or it’s always right (good).

      Ice cream and murder aren’t even remotely related as far as making an analogy goes. You cannot go to Baskin Robbins and order murder.

  • Jacklyn Kay Lockwood

    Avoiding personal responsibility. What about the father? Why does he get to walk away Scott free? If you force a woman to pay 9 months of her life, risk her life to give birth, go through the immense pain of childbirth and then be forced to either keep a child she will never really love, a constant reminder of a mistake, or give it away and never know if it has been properly cared for what about the father. He made the choice to partake in an activity that could potentially create a fetus, yet there is no law, absolutely none that says he has to stick around for the next nine months to 19 years. Tell me how that’s fair. Tell me how that’s just. No. You can’t. A man will never ever have to sacrifice his body, if a man had to Spend 9 months throwing up, Wobbling around on sore ankles, constantly having to buy new clothes you’ll only wear for a few weeks in your life, this would be a different argument. There is clear gender bias in these arguments, as well as a strong religious bias. I have as of yet never seen an argument for prolife that doesn’t have a gender or religious bias. Your argument is more flawed than the one you attacked. If I don’t believe as you do, why is my body forfeit to your ideals? And on to your masturbatory argument, that is a terrible parallel to pregnancy. No one is forcing that man to do something he doesn’t want to. He can masturbate as much as he would like in private. There are no limitations on what you would impose on a woman, where most prochoice activists are willing to concede a limitation. Your religion has no bearing on how I, or any other woman in this world, lives her life.

    • Mita Pogue

      Your freedom stops when it effects another human being… and a baby is human. Science says so. Why are you anti-science? The term fetus is simply a scientific term meaning ‘Offspring’. Why should your ‘freedom’ give you the right to reach into the womb and tear a baby apart (talk about painful!) literally limbs are pulled off the body, the skull crushed, torsos are ripped in two, and the baby feels excruciating pain. Why are you punishing the baby with death because the father is irresponsible? You also made the choice to take part in an activity that had the potential to create a fetus, or offspring. A baby. And if you know his name and social security number and unless he’s a felon in prison there’s this little thing called child support. Most guys have to pay that if the chose to walk away whether they want to or not. Plus no one spends 9 months throwing up. I’ve had 3 kids and I spent a cumulative total of maybe 4 days feeling nauseated and possibly 15 minutes of that in the bathroom bowing at the porcelain throne. All that said, no amount of ‘inconvenience’ on a woman’s part should cost an innocent human their life.

    • gpearl

      Isn’t there child support laws? First of all, does the father want the child murdered? Maybe he wants to raise it. Biologically, there is no way to make him go through the same process, but he can take over after the baby is born, providing support. The abortionist argument just keeps falling apart.

  • Rae

    If a woman is raped and becomes pregnant would you force her to carry the child? Honestly, some carried to term are likely loved but to many mothers a child is a constant reminder of a very traumatic experience which could leave her mentally broken. In that case a woman wasn’t given the choice of having sex or wanting a child, but was forced into it… So give her the choice of whether or not she can handle what she was forced into. So, no I don’t think you just “completely demolished” the “best argument for abortion.” And if you quote that guy in the States who said something along the lines of women’s bodies being able to shutdown production if it’s legitimate rape… Well… No.

    • Mita Pogue

      And how is the killing of an innocent child not going to compound the grief a woman feels? If the child who’s existence is the result of rape is capable of receiving love from one or more mothers, doesn’t that give you a clue that there is inherit value in those little lives? Getting rid of the product of a rape (a baby) doesn’t take away the rape. A person’s value is not contingent on how someone else feels about them.

    • gpearl

      Always the extreme argument, rape or health of the mother when these circumstance barely makeup 1% of the actual abortions. IF we were to say, ok, rapes and health of the mother, are ok, what would you say about the remainder of the abortions. Just mothers and dads not wanting their lifestyles changed?

  • dontromanticizethepast

    The problem with all abortion arguments is that people think you can “prove” one side right or wrong. Dichotomies like “right and wrong” just don’t have clear answers, and I take serious issue with the idea that a person’s beliefs have to fall into some predetermined category. It’s really easy to stretch the argument of bodily autonomy beyond its breaking point, but it doesn’t change the fact that staying pregnant just IS a woman’s choice. Anti-abortion activists are stupid because they think they can change the fact that women will not always want to bear children to term. Sorry, bud: the Romans did it, the Victorians did it, there will always be someone performing abortions, legal or not. Morality has nothing to do with it.

    • Mita Pogue

      How is right or wrong always based on a subjective worldview? If right and wrong are merely subjective viewpoints, how can we prosecute anyone for crime? Can their be any crime if there is no real concrete right or wrong?

  • BradMcEvoy

    The author repeatedly, incorrectly, uses the word ‘child’ to refer to the fetus, zygote or fertilized egg which a pregnant woman carries.

    I’m sure even the most fanatical anti-abortion people here would agree that a fertilized egg is not a person or an “unborn child”. So to say aborting it is equal to killing a real child is just batshit crazy. That would mean that the death of a fertilized egg would be mourned to the same extent that a parent mourns a lost child. Obviously, no, that is not true.

    But I’m sure we could all agree that just before a child is born, it **is** a child, and is due all the protections we give to all human life.

    So it seems to me that the argument here is not really is abortion right or wrong, but at what point in the development process does a fertilized egg become a person.

    • gpearl

      It always amazes me that the guilt is so strong that the liberals have to label the new life, a zygote or fertilized egg when they will report life as biosignatures or organics in remote places or an eagle’s egg as a life, or other protected species as life, but when it comes to a human, all of a sudden, a formed baby with arms, legs, movements, heartbeats, is a zygote, somehow. This is guilt so evident, it is hypocrisy. Babies have been photographed to be anguishing in pain as the scissors are inserted. Many are born anyway and killed on the table. What a disgusting excuse for the destruction of the human life, just to not interfere with a lifestyle which doesn’t include a baby. The argument stands, it’s the legal murder of over 55 million little lives. Changing the name of the baby is to ease the guilt.

      • BradMcEvoy

        Hey if you’re not interested in a rational debate just say so.

        And, personally, I’m not interested in labels like liberal and conservative. I believe in things which often labelled conservative and other things that you might call liberal. That does not make me conservative nor liberal. If you want to apply a label to me i would ask you use “humanist”, although i would expect all good people would say the same.

        But i digress. If you are interested in a rational debate then you will accept that at the point in time when a sperm fertilizes an egg that is actually a fertilized egg. At that point the egg has no feelings, emotions, thoughts or anything else we would consider human. Its only one cell, how could it possibly feel pain? When that egg first divides into 2 cells you are and I would both agree, I’m sure, that this is still not a child. It is just 2 cells – ie a zygote. This thing has the potential for becoming a child, but it is not yet a child.

        I can accept those who say that at some point during the pregnancy, if all goes well, this does become a person. Some, like yourself I’m sure, would say this is quite early in the process. In most countries the law regards this as happening much later. But lets recognise this debate for what it is, that its a matter of degree, not absolutes.

        You mention in your post “guilt” as something which you apparently believe others who support abortion feel. But you’re mistaken, what you’re seeing is sadness. Everyone i know who has lost a pregnancy by abortion or miscarriage has felt deep sadness. But I also know people who have lost a child, and believe me there is a difference.

        People recover from the loss of a pregnancy, but no one ever recovers from losing a child.

        Regards,
        Brad

        • gpearl

          OK, I’ll let you know when I’m not interested in a rational debate. At this point, I am fine with bluntness and having the rational part of the debate. I have to label a person a liberal whether they want to be called out for a liberal view of human life or not. A liberal shows their colors every time. I can tell by how offended you are. Humanist is the last thing I would call a person who is ok with destroying a human life to convenience the mother and father.

          Digress all you want and stay on topic. Liberals will save some animal egg from being destroyed and want the world moved for that egg because it is life, yet, have no problem with trash-canning a baby with arms, feet, head, and screaming while being scraped off the table.

          So, the guilt that the baby is not feeling anything, when there is proof the baby certainly is, is a guilt suppressor and they will fight that battle to the end to make sure their lifestyles are not interrupted. The Supreme Court in Roe vs Wade, by the way, had no right to make this legal. It was not meant to be decided by the courts. Human rights were outlined in the constitution and the Bill of Rights. Even those who support Roe vs Wade, did not heed the warning from the Supreme Court, that abortions were supposed to be rare. But 55 million deaths later, they seemed to have missed that part.
          This has been a complete melee and a free-for-all for selfish ignorant people. Slaughter after slaughter has let the parents continue having their glass of wine on a quiet evening with no little footsteps to interfere. That’s all that the murders are about. Liberals will do what you are doing and go to great lengths to explain that some doctor said it’s simply a rock in the stomach and it’s ok to toss that thing out. It helps ease the mind, but that’s a liberal mindset, but it’s a sickness.

          • Brad

            Thats ok, no offsense taken :)

            I’d agree with everything you say about killing human life, except that as i’ve been trying to say, and I’m sure you’d agree if you would just stop yelling angrily for a moment and think, is that at least at the point of fertilization an egg is not a person. So abortion, at that point at least, is not taking human life.

            At what point that egg becomes a person is a worthy debate, but it would be good to at least agree on what any sensible, rational, person should be able to agree on. ie an egg is not a person.

            Agreed?

          • Brad

            Actually, since we’ve got a nice banter going on and sharing perspectives, I’m interested in your thoughts as a “conservative” on the value of human life in a couple of other contexts.
            – do you support the death penalty?
            – do you support the current policy of targeted killings with drones?

          • gpearl

            Your liberalism is showing…..yes, I agree with the death penalty. The destruction of life should be reciprocated. My guess your argument will now defend the criminal, never for a defenseless baby. Typical of most liberals.
            Yes, I support targeted killings with drones if they are targeting enemies of our country who may inflict more harm on Americans. I do not support the targeting of American terrorists, who should be brought to justice through our system of courts. Ready to go on this one?

          • Brad

            Well, thats a line of discussion that could go longer then i have time for and we’d probably just end up comparing each other to Nazi’s.

            But given an egg, fertilized or not, is not a human, clearly we can accept that abortion at least at its early stage is not taking human life. Killing children in far away countries definitely is:

            http://www.policymic.com/articles/24164/a-list-of-children-killed-by-drone-strikes-in-pakistan-and-yemen

          • gpearl

            We cannot conveniently accept it, since the goal is to rid ourselves of the responsibility of a child or being “punished with a baby” as our president put it. So, making the baby an egg, yes, much easier to crack and accept.

          • Brad

            OK, so your position is that an egg is actually a person and must not ever be killed. A person (though presumably not an egg) can be killed if they’re not American.

          • gpearl

            Let me know when you are ready to have a rational discussion. Every living thing begins life in some form. You appear to enjoy calling humans, eggs. Fine with me, but just don’t kill it so you don’t have to be bothered with raising it. A person, who is not an infant, or as you call it, an egg, who has joined forces with an organization that has declared war on the United States, and actively works to kill Americans, has killed Americans in the thousands and will do so again, yes, those non-eggs should be killed. If they are American terrorists, they have a right to a trial. Your liberalism is just flaming now.

          • Brad

            Hi gpearl, nice to have you back!

            Just so we’re clear, when i use the word “egg” for the purpose of this discussion, I’m actually talking about an egg. Ie the thing that a sperm enters in the act of fertilisation. It is initially a single cell, moments later it becomes 2 cells. This is not a child, although it has the potential to become one. In the same way that a thought has the potential to become an act, and yet thoughts and acts are different.

            Or, for a more literal example, the way a seed can become a tree. But a seed and a tree are different things.

            And here’s a few of those nasty terrorists trying to blow us up. Dont it make you proud …

            http://www.thebureauinvestigates.com/2012/03/29/the-civilian-massacre-the-us-will-neither-confirm-nor-deny/

            BTW, when you say support killing non-Americans without any legal process, you’re talking about me, my family and my friends. Thats actually not very nice.

            Cheers,
            Brad

          • gpearl

            I had this feeling that alcohol was involved, cheers. I just read your desperate attempt, and great lengths liberals will go to, to say, please believe me, it’s not living, so I can suck out this non-living thing’s brain and rip it out of the life supporting system that is sustaining it. But it’s not living….great lengths to prove it’s not really alive so it’s a free for all. Destroy it.

            As far as terrorists, I take it you’re a terrorist sympathizer and we are too harsh on America killers whose lives have been destroyed by people who just hate us.

            Your last statement, responding to my comment that American killing terrorists should be killed, you say I am talking about you? Yes, if you kill Americans, you should be killed without a legal process since that’s not very nice.

            Drink up

          • Brad

            No, sadly, there’s no alcohol being consumed here. Just a late night working, with an occasional break to chat with a friendly conservative. “Cheers” is a frequent term of endearment in these parts, it implies being relaxed, friendly and un-threatening.

            But you know what, I think we just found something that we can agree on. That a fertilized egg is life! Yes, definitely its life. So thats a bit of a breakthrough. But its not a person.

            “terrorist sympathizer” -> ah, you’ll have to try harder if you want to make me angry!

            No, all who take part in and support violence disgust me, and I sympathize with all victims of violence. I dont care about race or nationality, I believe that all people are equal. I believe human life is sacred. I’m not sure if you’re religious at all but you should read the bible sometime, its got some wonderful stories that can be very enlightening in that regard.

            The current policy of targeted killing has nothing to do with whether people actually are involved in terrorism. You should look up “signature strike” :

            http://www.huffingtonpost.com/arianna-huffington/signature-strikes-and-the_b_3575351.html

            This is not war, this is extra-judicial killing, and the decision to kill is made by a man – President Obama. Are you confident he will always make the right decision? Do you know that he has chosen to kill Americans, including an American teenage boy? Do you know they target the emergency responders after a hit? Do you know how many children have been killed? Do you know the toll this takes on the US servicemen who do the killing?

            Knowing all that, do you think its right?

          • gpearl

            You see my comments as angry or is there guilt associated with the truth? For your own knowledge, I am not an angry person. People will describe as a calm, but to the point person. Emails, however can take on a tone, which the guilty may construe as anger and will feel guilt as a result of the content.

            An egg is the beginning of life, so, no, I do not agree. When life begins, it should not be destroyed for convenience. You and I know, the destruction of life goes far beyond the “egg” as you call it to make it inanimate and lifeless. It evolves in to a human form and is still aborted, for lifestyle convenience.

    • Notion

      This is slightly irrelevant and really just a point of semantics but the term fetus, at least in Latin, refers to offspring, young or baby, in many ( not all) uses.

  • blue

    For those that say they care more about expecting mother than the child in her womb – Please prove that you care by going to an abortion clinic and offering to hold the hand of the mother as a “professional” rips a human being from her insides and then offer to go with her to any follow-up doctor visits or counseling visits that may be necessary for months and years following her “freedom of choice” – If you’ve done this – then others just might believe that you care for the mother more than the child!

  • Winedarksee

    I am glad to see Matt’s clear and well reasoned response to, and demolition of, the “bodily autonomy argument.” This argument (or perhaps dogmatic claim would be a better description) is of course endlessly repeated by pro-choice people as if it was some kind of well established fact. It is nothing of the sort as Matt has clearly indicated.

    I’ve only recently looked at the arguments put forward by pro-choice people, and have been amazed at how poorly reasoned their arguments are, at the reliance on dogmatic assertions, at the use of insults and personal attacks, and at the intolerant “shunning” some pro-choice people are advocating against those they disagree with.

    • David

      You know, I was going
      to systematically demolish your points one-by-one but the truth is: I’m tired.
      I seriously got to ask: are you really so incredibly stupid to look at the
      region and think that Israel is the problem? The entire region is melting down,
      hundreds of people are dying every day, and it could soon be thousands a day.
      Half the Christians have fled Islamic persecution in the last four decades and
      the whole region is on the verge of an apocalyptic collapse and you think its a
      good idea to go after the one country that is actually trying to improve itself
      and excel? Are you a child? Do I really have to hold your hand and explain to
      you why the only country that protects its minorities (Israel has a growing
      Christian minority unlike every other country in the area), that holds free
      elections regularly, that values human rights, should not be forced to make
      concessions to a bunch insane fanatics trying to trash the Jewish country just
      like they have trashed every other country in the region? If so, I don’t have
      time or the energy to do so now. Maybe in a couple of days I’ll break this down
      for you in terms a mentally defective person can understand.

      BTW, I’m responding to you here because the website kept deleting my previous responses.

  • Jess1993

    terminating the pregnancy, or having her ovary burst. Two, if a mother is raped, and the rape causes a severe std, such as aids, to be contracted. Granted the likelihood is low, but I don’t feel that that is a quality life for the mother, or a child who is doomed to life a life of suffering. Some have argued with me about a scenario of the child being autistic is the same as a child being born with aids, so therefore I must hate autistic individuals. This is not true, a genetic disposition is not the same as a deadly disease that will inevitably kill you.

    Aside from drastic situations, I feel that if, myself included, a woman was to get pregnant, due to having intercourse, she should take responsibility for her conscious decisions. As stated, there are other available options, such as adoption, and there are even places you can go to, sadly, leave the child, should the mother, or parents, feel that they are unable to provide for a child. It is legal to leave the child at the hospital, fire department, or the police station, and have them be put into an adoption agency. I don’t like the idea, but it is an option.

  • C Williams

    What a great response! I am a mother of 2, with a loss of 9 miscarriages. There was not one point in my whole life where my husband & I even considered an abortion. It is not in our vocabulary. I think abortion is glossed over to much, young people do not understand what they are doing in an abortion. The young lady gets put under. She then comes awake, feeling sore & sorry for herself. Any emotional response if swept aside. It is just not “talked about”.

    Well done young man, stay true to your faith & belief.

  • ME

    Hey, at least the morons who are ok with abortion are making less children to raise with their idiotic views… too bad this is the only solution evolution could find for offing the lesser species. Makes those of us who know the truth about how wrong it is super sad people have to die because they are too dumb to make intelligent choices.

  • grayrain

    “The unborn child is not, in any scientific or medical sense, an intruder or a parasite. These words have meanings, and unborn babies do not fit the bill. They are where they are supposed to be. They are where they belong. A fish belongs in water, just as an unborn child belongs in his mother’s womb.”

    If your god made parasites, and all living creatures, then they’re just right where they’re supposed to be, too. You know, destroying your tissues. Don’t mess with god by trying to remove them.

    There is so much utter bullshit, illogical argument, and just downright idiocy in Matt Walsh’s “response.” It’s the obvious rantings of someone who wants to force life into the world no matter what (Matt Walsh just declared he’s pro-rape, too), so that their crazy death god will have another judgeable slave. It can see if it wants to torture that one forever or not, too.

    For starters: using analogies for argument doesn’t work, and both parties here are idiots for wanting to use them. It’s the attempt to validate one set of circumstances by another that is always fundamentally different (because they’re two separate circumstances). It doesn’t matter how many similarities there are, they’re always going to be different, because they literally are not the same thing. Otherwise, you wouldn’t need to analogize to it.

    We only use analogies to aid in the understanding of something else, not provide evidence of argument for something. Communication? Sure. Empirically? No, no, no, no, no.

    Here’s the best pro-choice argument: The mother is the literal gateway of life. She can determine whether she wants their child to be in this world or not, or if she wants to go through the experience, and no one else. Not your crazy death god, not a father, no one. If they want the child in so bad, then they can go get pregnant instead, so that they can pointlessly reproduce and force another person into their drama world.

    “But it’s killing something…”

    Go blame your god for a terrible delivery/reproduction method, or blame evolution, or both. Ironically, if a body naturally terminated an embryo/fetus (which it can and does, usually by some outside stress), then none of you would be saying anything. You guys don’t seem to care that you’re setting up something to die by forcing it into existence in the first place. Whether you abort something or not, you’re always killing it in the end, whether it lives one day or a hundred years.

    And really, you guys don’t care about life at all. You love to force it into the world, and nothing more. After the baby loses its charm after growing up, then its totally open to anything it deserves, right?

    You guys are the sick ones. Force something into existence, then make it go through your idiotic drama, as its forced to chase happiness to overcome all the stupidity. Maybe ask the baby if it wanted to be here in the first place, especially if it was born into one of the more shithole areas of the world.

    You folks are slave holders, and nothing more.

  • http://plumstchili.blogspot.com/ Plum Dumpling

    My body and its contents belongs to (pick one):

    1. You.
    2. the State.
    3. Me and my family.

    My children belong with and to:

    1. You.
    2. the State.
    3. Me and my family.

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